and how many jobs and how much wealth is created by the poor?

out of the EUSSR please, next thing they will make a eu army and force us in pointless wars with russia,

Another absolutely excellent post and the last part in bold, is 100% right.

The people of the UK could never get a balanced and impartially informed assessment pf the positives and negatives of being in the EU due to a ridiculously biased media against the EU.

Really well said.

Almost goes without saying, sadly! The people of the UK never get a balanced or impartially informed assessment of the positives and negatives of ANYTHING due to a ridiculously biased media.

I don't know if it's getting worse, or if I'm just noticing it more... But it really is completely ridiculous. Printed and televised news sources are all but completely useless. This election campaign is a farce already and it's barely started.

What is the point of this statement? I don't understand the connection to my post.

I'm all for negotiating a better europe, but if that fails, I think we should be out.

There is way to much bureaucracy with unelected people in charge. Its all just jobs for the boys.

Too much legislation coming down that erodes our own sovereignty, and that aspect is only going to get worse unless we kick back.

The problem with europe is that it is not balanced enough to be sustainable. Too many different cultures on different levels of wealth. We are only 1 step away from communism with the principle that the wealthy countries contribute to sustain the poor ones. It provides zero incentive for them to get of their asses and help themselves while the net contributors plough money hand over fist into their pockets.

I'm not a UKIP supporter at all, Nigel wants to come out of Europe for all the wrong reasons and none of the right ones (in my opinion :laugh:)

get out of Europe is the best option imo the whole thing is infinitely too bloated too complex too expensive and way too many laws....the longer it goes on as it is the further we will fall into an almost communist style over controlling monstrosity
one glorious day when they will need to steal money directly from us all to pay for their waste and their existence there will be tachometers in everyones cars...then youll all give up

I remember the time before Britain became part of the EU and we never had a problem with trade in those days.
Also having borders was a big help in fighting drugs, illegal immigration etc.,
I do believe that we should have a referendum. Why is it that the government (all parties) are so reluctant to have one?
In Denmark, where I now live, the people were asked to vote to be part of the EU. There was a resounding NO, so the Danish government kept having a vote untiul they got the right /wrong in my view, answer.
I like the thought of Britain being an independant nation once more. Making our own decisions and just being responsible for ourselves.
However if a referendum was held and the majority did want to be in the EU I would have to accept it.
For me personally I think Britain being ruled by fat cat pen pushers in Brussels is the worst idea possible.

The EU or common market then was very small in relation to how it has progressed today,from before we joined.

However,a worthy fact of that tiems, iof we were doing so well as you say, why then did the UK under both Conservative and Labour govt;s deperately try and apply to become part of it.
From Harold Mcmillan right through to Edward heath.
With Edward Heath, the then Conservative PM in the early70s,who negotiated terms of entry to Europe and then took the UK into Europe too.

Never holding a referendum if the UK wanted to go in, just doing it.

If we were doing that well, why would we want to change and join, because we knew it would likely grow into a masisve trading block and to not be part of it wold be a disaster,even in the 70s and 80s,up top the present.

The UK did then eventually get asked if we should be in or out, in 1975 by Harold Wilson's Labour govt;
In fact Labour is the only party to ever hold any referendum on Europe, the Conservatives as I said, even took us in,in the first place, nevr asking the UK citizens at all.

So I cannot see any point, after all that time and all the funding we have given to and had back from the EU,plus that we have been a member for so long now,to even think of leaving now with all the massive uncertianty and bad feeling that would likely create for the UK.

Why should Europe overturn tariffs given by us for UK crimes,I don't like that sort of interference,what we do with our criminals is surely down to us.

That would be a viable argument but not without hypocrisy since our country gets involved in the criminal justice systems of other countries too.

I know this is due to a case that is very personal to you and it's a point that would leave anyone without a heart of stone shocked that the EU would become involved in this and reduce the sentence.
All I can think is that there was nothing in place and no rules in place with which to deal with such a crime at the time so the British courts had to sort of make it up as they went along?

Because govts; both Labour and Conservative have signed up to such possible interference by the signing of treaties and acts brought forward by the EU and no govt; Labour or Conservative have ever asked the voters to agree to same.

However, that is done now, our govts; and PMs from Edward Heath, Harold Wilson, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, have all signed up to treaties brought forward, so our word as the UK has been given.

Both parties in govt; too have signed away powers from the UK to the EU, John Major and the Masstricht threaty being one of the biggest.
John Major would have been open to joining the Euro too, as was Tony Blair,who wanted to go for it but Gordon Brown said no way at all as to that as the then Chancellor.

I agree it seems wrong but there are what now, around 28 countries in the EU now and all of them are under that same directive just as we are.

So for me, and I agree with your strong point made.
In my view however,we need to try to reform things, if we can, from being fully inside the EU but not now, after agreeing to all these conditions and treaties,not to just pick our ball up and run off whining,because we cannot get our own way all or even most of the time.

Thank god for that. I haven't heard good things of Gordon but I guess this could be one of them.

Do we still have the European arrest warrant Joey?.... I can't work out if we do or not :/


'Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): Today we have had a completely shambolic debate. The Home Secretary has given an excellent account of why we should support policies that are not on the Order Paper. She has given an excellent defence of the European arrest warrant, which is not on the Order Paper. I agree with her that the European arrest warrant is immensely important. It helps us to fight crime. It helps the police, in Britain and across Europe, to stop murderers, traffickers and sex offenders. It helps us to deport more than 1,000 suspected foreign criminals primarily to their own countries to face justice. Given that there is a majority in this House in favour of the European arrest warrant, why on earth are we not voting for it? Why the sophistry? Why the games? Why the dancing around? It is just baffling that the Home Secretary is playing games with something so important to criminal justice and to the fight against international crime and terrorism.'

http://www.publications.parliament.u...14111019000001

Gordon Brown as Chancellor insisted that no way would he permit Tony Blair to go ahead and explore joining the Euro,he ruled it out completely..
If Tony Blair had got his way, we would have probably had the Euro now.

Confusing,I understand last year this govt wanted to opt out of the european criminal law conditions but at the same time wanted to opt in again to the european arrest warrant system part of it.
I understand we are still in that part of it for now but things will be likely changing again as to the EU directive on european criminal law, so it may well be that we cannot still remain in it,when those changes come forward,if we are opted out of the other conditions again.

No wonder you get confused, this Home Secretary is the biggest waste of space in any govt; past ,present or even likely future one.
She has played dangerous games with security and international cooperation as to crime, in my view.
How she has survived is up to the present, my greatest political mystery.

Absolutely this

She probably knows something sensitive, about someone with influence. That's usually how incompetent people end up keeping their jobs. Or get them in the first place.

Yes... she could be doing an edwina and tupping her way up? *shudder*

All I can think of is that David Cameron has always seen her as a threat to his leadership so has kept her close, backed her up all the time,no matter the problems that came up.

She is also one I think who is really eager that if Cameron ends up going after the May election,she is ready to pounce, as she is a frontrunner to win that leadership contest.

Maybe she likes to... No, better stop, this filthy talk about politicians already got one thread removed!

100% IN

the US constitution is 13 pages...the European constitution is 587 pages of unreadable nonsense....that sums is up. no one can or has even read the european one in full. the sheer enormity of it the almost infinite ;laws rules and regulations...all designed to milk each european of money to feed these overpaid unelected unaccountable eurocrats.
the ONLY thing that saved the uk from bankruptcy is the pound and controlling our interest rates. GET OUT ASAP. in the meantime lets fight tooth and nail to get as many rules that suit our agenda

Hardly unelected, there is a European parliament which each member nation sends MPs too from their respective european elections.

It isn't that important to have to read every detail of the EU 'constitution' what the people in the UK do need to know is the benefits we acquire from being in the EU and also the drawbacks to being in.

I think if that was ever presented fairly and balanced from the media and indeed UK politicians too.
Then in that case just possibly, the voters would get a better idea of the whole picture with facts, and not just the hysterically prejudiced UKIP version where all is really bad as to the EU, which is ridiculous,or say the Lib Dem version where all is wonderful about the EU, again a ridiculous stance.

I support being in the EU and have no wish for a referendum either at this time,I admit however there are negatives as well as positives to being in the EU but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.

No other major country hit bankruptcy and the Germans were doing much better than we were for one,and they have the euro not the pound.

Our problem with the EU parliament is we send MPs there who are not committed to it.
We send MPs who become isolated because most of them especially in the last european elections,are anti EU anyway.
We can never really influence happenings in the EU if we keep sending half hearted or disruptive people there on our behalf.
Or have any govt, that casts a cloud over EU membership for almost 5 years.like this present govt; or god forbid elects a govt; that says we have to come out no matter what happens as to any re-negotiations.

I am thankfully not a little Englander, I see the UKs role enhanced in the World by being part of the massive EU, not being a sidelined small island as to the rest of Europe.

UKIPs policy as to the EU,combining it with immigration is the most dangerous policy for the UK overall,in my view.
Just as the pocrastination from this PM over the last 2 and a half years,then wanting another 2+ years to re-negotiate and then hold a 'possible' referendum is also, to me, dangerous and demonstrating terrible leadership of the UK as a whole.