[Northern Monkey]

Here is what staunch feminist campaigner and loud voice against sexual harassment and assault Jess Phillips has to say on Brendan Cox.
(I’m sure she’s gonna rip him a new one.You go guurl )

Youtube video

Oh.....

Wait what?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Dear Brendan,

I met you once last year at an event for International Women’s Day. We talked for about 10 minutes and have had no contact since, so I was surprised when you wrote a private message to me at the weekend via Twitter asking for advice.

I saw your resignation statement – the announcement that you were standing down from charity work in response to claims of harassment and sexual assault - and was immediately struck by the way in which you presented as an apology something that seemed to minimise and dismiss even those instances of “inappropriate” behaviour you acknowledge. These were several years ago, you said (as though the passage of time made them smaller) and you never acted in bad faith. How often have we seen such apologies for apologies since the start of the #MeToo campaign?

I tweeted how deficient yours was as a mea culpa and within minutes a private message from you landed. “Would be good to talk to you about your views on what I should do,” you wrote.

Forgive me, but my first thought was to wonder how many women received similar messages asking how you can improve your ways—or at least appear to do so.

I wonder if you even understand what you’ve done.

First there is your history at Save the Children. Harassment is the result of a power imbalance. I believe that you are clever enough to know this. I believe that you understand, as many men do, that arguing over what does or doesn’t constitute harassment, what was or wasn’t intentional, isn’t the point. Did you ever pursue anyone who could fire you? Anyone who could say no without fearing the consequences?


You asked for advice, Brendan, so here’s some: Stop pursuing women in order to make yourself feel better. I don’t just mean you should avoid harassing women - that should really go without saying. Stop asking women to help you fix your mistakes or forgive you for them.

Secondly, there’s your statement. “My actions were never malicious but they were at times inappropriate” is the defence of a man who seems to not have not taken the time to reflect on the influence you wield. Ask yourself why you acted the way did.

You don’t get a free pass just because you might be doing good things in other parts of your life. As your example and the scandal roiling Oxfam illustrate, that can make things worse, because directly or indirectly the repercussions hit some of the most vulnerable.

Nobody should be surprised that supposedly good men do bad things. When I read your statement, I thought of some of the men I encounter in my work as a feminist activist. There are old-fashioned, unvarnished sexists and then there are the ones who are blinded by their own sense of virtue. Like the man who stands too close to me when he comes to ask questions after a talk I’ve given. The man who explains the importance of his experiences because he cares about women and demands I stand in silent acknowledgement until he is finished. To show that while I may think I have power, he still has more. That I have just as much power as he lets me have.

Luckily there are also many men who are true allies to women, men with whom I am glad to work and glad to know. They understand that you can’t make space for other people unless you take up less space yourself.

You can do better: by stepping back. Redefine the fundamentals of advocacy that you and other men in the aid sector have so badly stained. To empower the vulnerable, those with power must give it without limit or condition. Say sorry and mean it, and then go away.

I hope this helps.

Sophie

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b00bc49f46c61f

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Dear Brendan,

I met you once last year at an event for International Women’s Day..... etc. etc..................

She's said it all.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Livia

She's said it all.

Brendan knows he did wrong, maybe he tried to downplay the harassment as he said some are "exaggerated" . Like I've said he was supposed to be doing charity work and instead he was helping himself

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

She's said it all.

Yeah I have to agree.

And if he is really contacting random women he spoke to once for 10 mins a year back to ask how he can fix this mess he has created for himself via his own behaviour, thats pretty sad tbh :S

And there is always minimizing when stuff like this comes out. Annoys the **** out of me

[Kizzy]

Who is 'Sophie?'... We have no idea if this is genuine.
Even if it is all it states essentially is he asks for advice, not stating who reached out to whom initially and a suggestion it would be good to talk, as someone who it appears he felt able to talk to on the issue as a friend... but that is twisted, now he is painted as some kind of predator a friendly chat is something that is now a sinister precursor to abuse of some description.

This whole thing is now so screwed up, it has no basis in reality or truth and that's not even given any consideration, why are there accusations of minimising we don't know what happened initially to even get a perspective on the issue only a few media reports and this anonymous monologue.

Trial by media, I'm sorry but there is no other explanation.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

And there is always minimizing when stuff like this comes out. Annoys the **** out of me

First of all, for clarity, I condemn his behaviour. The same as I condemn similar behaviour in men generally. Such behaviour in men has been widespread for ever. And now, hopefully, starting with the current campaigns, whatever we may think of them, and taking it further, to all other sectors and industries (film, industry, charity sector, politics being only the beginning) there will be better awareness and empowerment of women to stop taking it anymore.

But to truly address it we need cultural change in men.
Minimizing this stuff, I think, is something men have in common. Men simply think that casual sexual harassment is not such a big deal. To truly change that men will need to start looking at this from female perspective which will take some doing.
I'd hazzard a guess it's because of how men approach all things sexual - which is less seriously than women. If harassed by a woman, most men would see it as a compliment even if a bit awkward. Women wouldn't look at it like that. They would, quite rightly, feel violated.
Also, for women the problem is compounded by the fact that they're usually not as physically strong and that men are often in a position of power (here inequality at work plays a role too).

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

First of all, for clarity, I condemn his behaviour. The same as I condemn similar behaviour in men generally. Such behaviour in men has been widespread for ever. And now, hopefully, starting with the current campaigns, whatever we may think of them, and taking it further, to all other sectors and industries (film, industry, charity sector, politics being only the beginning) there will be better awareness and empowerment of women to stop taking it anymore.

But to truly address it we need cultural change in men.
Minimizing this stuff, I think, is something men have in common. Men simply think that casual sexual harassment is not such a big deal. To truly change that men will need to start looking at this from female perspective which will take some doing.
I'd hazzard a guess it's because of how men approach all things sexual - which is less seriously than women. If harassed by a woman, most men would see it as a compliment even if a bit awkward. Women wouldn't look at it like that. They would, quite rightly, feel violated.
Also, for women the problem is compounded by the fact that they're usually not as physically strong and that men are often in a position of power (here inequality at work plays a role too).

I completely disagree with this. I don't go around behaving inappropriately to women, none of my friends and family go around behaving inappropriately to women. The men that do it, know exactly what they are doing. They know it is inappropriate and are relying on fear and intimidation to get away with it. They need to be prosecuted and that requires woman to stand up and say no, i'm not allowing this, and finally it's starting to happen. I'm not a particular fan of campaigns like are currently happening because they always tend to get hijacked, but at this point women do need encouragement to speak out so it has to run its course. Men that respect woman have nothing to fear ... at least, not yet.

[Vicky.]

Women speaking out are still in the wrong though. Either they are blamed, accused of lying, or they were in the wrong for waiting so long to speak up. Or its minimized, made out to be over the top (see. the many people who start with the 'you cannot even say hello without being accused of sexual harassment' type people) or just them being humourless and not getting 'banter'..even if said 'banter' was actually clear sexual harrassment and/or assault. They are doing it for compensation/attention/to be spiteful and ruin an innocent blokes life. Etc

OR all of the above.

People assume the accusation is simply because they had sex and regretted it so it made sense to instead of just forget it, drag it out for months or years, reliving it over and over and telling numerous people a lot of very personal details. Going on about it in detail for a long time to many people is definitely what one would usually do if they simply regretted a bad decision they made. Because thats totally logical.

Then in court they are cross examined for days, treat as if its them who has committed a crime, their entire sexual history is brought up to try and discredit them becuse everyone knows that unless a woman is a virgin she cannot be raped and if she ever consented to sex with one man, this means she consents to all sex with all men. The fact that she was wearing a skirt, or had drank alcohol is used against her. There are more...but I could literally go on for hours and hours so I will end on the final most shocking one..finally, excuses such as 'I acidentally fell over onto a sleeping woman, naked, with an erecton and landed penis first in her vagina' are actually used and accepted in court as a defense.

[Maru]

Dumb defenses is something many stupid people do when they're caught though, it's both a male and female thing. Like I messed up, so I'll just throw everything I possibly can to refute this even though none of it will stick. It's not even a male/female thing... both sexes absolutely use these type of mental tricks.

Oh and Vicky, to add to your great example, here is another dumb defense I read about today...

Doctor who denied sex abuse by saying his belly was too big loses licence
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...s-licence.html

Ontario’s medical regulator has revoked the licence of a Barrie dermatologist who argued there was no way he could have rubbed his penis against his female patients because of his large belly

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

I completely disagree with this. I don't go around behaving inappropriately to women, none of my friends and family go around behaving inappropriately to women. The men that do it, know exactly what they are doing. They know it is inappropriate and are relying on fear and intimidation to get away with it. They need to be prosecuted and that requires woman to stand up and say no, i'm not allowing this, and finally it's starting to happen. I'm not a particular fan of campaigns like are currently happening because they always tend to get hijacked, but at this point women do need encouragement to speak out so it has to run its course. Men that respect woman have nothing to fear ... at least, not yet.

The only concession I will make is that I should clarify that not all men are like I described. But other than that we'll have to disagree. Most men do think that casual forms of harassment like banter, a casual grope, innuendos etc are not a biggie. Part of male gender stereotype is that they are supposed to be initiators when it comes to sexual contact and some are abusing it or or are **** at it.
edited to add:
stuff in court, police investigation like Vicky mentioned, imo, confirms my take on it. The uphill struggle for women to prove anything is another symptom of most men simply looking at the same facts differently.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Dumb defenses is something many stupid people do when they're caught though, it's both a male and female thing.

However, that defence was accepted, and he was cleared. Making up dumb **** when on the spot I can understand, that dumb **** being accepted in court as an actual legitimate reason, I can not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Women speaking out are still in the wrong though. Either they are blamed, accused of lying, or they were in the wrong for waiting so long to speak up. Or its minimized, made out to be over the top (see. the many people who start with the 'you cannot even say hello without being accused of sexual harassment' type people) or just them being humourless and not getting 'banter'..even if said 'banter' was actually clear sexual harrassment and/or assault. They are doing it for compensation/attention/to be spiteful and ruin an innocent blokes life. Etc

OR all of the above. Then in court they are cross examined for days, treat as if its them who has committed a crime, their entire sexual history is brought up to try and discredit them becuse everyone knows that unless a woman is a virgin she cannot be raped and if she ever consented to sex with one man, this means she consents to all sex with all men. The fact that she was wearing a skirt, or had drank alcohol is used against her. There are more...but I could literally go on for hours and hours so I will end on the final most shocking one..finally, excuses such as 'I acidentally fell over onto a sleeping woman, naked, with an erecton and landed penis first in her vagina' are actually used and accepted in court as a defense.

But they aren't, all organisations have HR, there are sessions on equality and diversity s well as safeguarding.
I work as a security guard 90% of my colleagues are men, 90% of the truck drivers who come through the gatehouse are men... And I have had an issue that warranted intervention once in 2yrs, and it was dealt with swiftly, I was kept informed throughout and felt very supported.

There are still people who say those things like 'you can't say anything' or blame 'banter' but luckily this really does seem to be changing... slowly.

Conversely I agree with you about the courts, where there does seem to be a very regressive vibe, which is really worrying.
The use of sexual history in rape cases and the very different way that high profile offenders are treated are prime examples.

I would go as far as to say the differentials are classist.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

But they aren't, all organisations have HR, there are sessions on equality and diversity s well as safeguarding.
I work as a security guard 90% of my colleagues are men, 90% of the truck drivers who come through the gatehouse are men... And I have had an issue that warranted intervention once in 2yrs, and it was dealt with swiftly, I was kept informed throughout and felt very supported.

There are still people who say those things like 'you can't say anything' or blame 'banter' but luckily this really does seem to be changing... slowly.

Conversely I agree with you about the courts, where there does seem to be a very regressive vibe, which is really worrying.
The use of sexual history in rape cases and the very different way that high profile offenders are treated are prime examples.

I would go as far as to say the differentials are classist.

I would say you were 'lucky'. Obviously not that the situation needed intervention, but that you were taken seriously.

And I didn't necessarily mean at work (though have had my fair share of sexual assaults being minimized at work..had one boss trying to persuade me not to make a complaint as the guy could lose his job and that was 'too much' when all he did was grope me for a few seconds. No, I did not work for Brock Turners dad) but just..in general. No matter what a woman does (when the victim of sexual assault or rape), she is in the wrong. Especially, if there are enough complaints about the same person for it to make the press, or the story is 'interesting' enough for it to make the press. The victim blaming, the 'shes just being vindictive' the 'she is overreacting', 'she asked him out and he said no so this is revenge' and such come in force then.

Meanwhile, when a guy is raped and it hits the press, you see none of that. There is no speculation about if he was showing too much skin, no insinuations that he is to blame in some way, no disbelief by default. There shouldn't be either, incase someone reads this wrong. I am definitely not wanting male victims to be assumed to be lying. I am just pointing out the difference in treatment between the sexes in cases like this.

If he is sexually asaulted by a woman though..and especially if she was young and attractive, you do get some idiots (almost exclusively guys) saying he is actually lucky. That they would love to be assaulted by her, and such

Obviously maybe not every single case ever in the history of press has been like that^ Before someone goes and finds one comment of how a guy brought on his own rape, or something. But this is overwhelmingly the general tone, including in the 'justice system' rather than just the press/public opinion

[Vicky.]

I just realised I am extremely offtopic here. May delete my posts. Sorry

Edit just been looking at them and there are a few replies that I would have to delete too that do not quote but reference my offtopic ranting..so will leave them but just won't continue that argument. Might have to delete them though if the entire thread is turned into that though, as its meant to be about the allegations made about Cox. Given I have already closed a thread about the same topic..would feel bad to delete a bunch of posts in the remake, or to play a big part in it going offtopic this time..should have thought before posting really.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I would say you were 'lucky'. Obviously not that the situation needed intervention, but that you were taken seriously.

And I didn't necessarily mean at work (though have had my fair share of sexual assaults being minimized at work..had one boss trying to persuade me not to make a complaint as the guy could lose his job and that was 'too much' when all he did was grope me for a few seconds. No, I did not work for Brock Turners dad) but just..in general. No matter what a woman does (when the victim of sexual assault or rape), she is in the wrong. Especially, if there are enough complaints about the same person for it to make the press, or the story is 'interesting' enough for it to make the press. The victim blaming, the 'shes just being vindictive' the 'she is overreacting', 'she asked him out and he said no so this is revenge' and such come in force then.

Meanwhile, when a guy is raped and it hits the press, you see none of that. There is no speculation about if he was showing too much skin, no insinuations that he is to blame in some way, no disbelief by default. There shouldn't be either, incase someone reads this wrong. I am definitely not wanting male victims to be assumed to be lying. I am just pointing out the difference in treatment between the sexes in cases like this.

If he is sexually asaulted by a woman though..and especially if she was young and attractive, you do get some idiots (almost exclusively guys) saying he is actually lucky. That they would love to be assaulted by her, and such

Obviously maybe not every single case ever in the history of press has been like that^ Before someone goes and finds one comment of how a guy brought on his own rape, or something. But this is overwhelmingly the general tone, including in the 'justice system' rather than just the press/public opinion

Maybe but in the workplace now there isn't the scope for sweeping things away that there was, unless the firm is small and there is no specific HR or company guidelines. Then it very much is that you are at the mercy of your boss and his personal ethics

But yeah girls in schools even have infomercials to show them that it is ok to say no, this may be the effects of watching porn?.. That's one theory :/

I would be interested to see if history is brought up in cases of male rape, and if it is a contributory factor in assessing the possibility of the complainants consent during the act.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who is 'Sophie?'... We have no idea if this is genuine.
Even if it is all it states essentially is he asks for advice, not stating who reached out to whom initially and a suggestion it would be good to talk, as someone who it appears he felt able to talk to on the issue as a friend... but that is twisted, now he is painted as some kind of predator a friendly chat is something that is now a sinister precursor to abuse of some description.

This whole thing is now so screwed up, it has no basis in reality or truth and that's not even given any consideration, why are there accusations of minimising we don't know what happened initially to even get a perspective on the issue only a few media reports and this anonymous monologue.

Trial by media, I'm sorry but there is no other explanation.

I agree with you on that ‘Sophie’ thing.Reading it,It’s basically a load of nothing.Sounds like she’s just jumping on the bandwagon going to the papers.No actual facts about any wrong doing.

Trying to be objective after reading the Guardian and the Mail i think he’s definitely done something/s but it’s possibly been blown out of proportion a little.
The allegation in the US the charges were dropped.That doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t do anything but there’s also no proof he did.
I’m inclined to believe the other one is possibly true.He didn’t quit the charity for nothing.I think he knew he’d done wrong.

Overall,My opinion is that It doesn’t look good for him.He sounds like he had a problem with booze and got too touchy feely with women and turned into abit of a sex pest and him and his boss possibly egged each other on.
I think they thought it was a laugh and didn’t mean any malice But that doesn’t make it right and i think most people would lose their job over that.He quit one job before the hearing so he knew he’d crossed a line.
I think he was a pervy bloke and it sounds like he got a reputation for it,I also think he was a cheat.
He probably deserved to lose his job due to his behaviour.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I just realised I am extremely offtopic here. May delete my posts. Sorry

Edit just been looking at them and there are a few replies that I would have to delete too that do not quote but reference my offtopic ranting..so will leave them but just won't continue that argument. Might have to delete them though if the entire thread is turned into that though, as its meant to be about the allegations made about Cox. Given I have already closed a thread about the same topic..would feel bad to delete a bunch of posts in the remake, or to play a big part in it going offtopic this time..should have thought before posting really.

What's wrong with having a broader debate? Cox can still be discussed alongside it.