[arista]

So Russia Vs America
while in Ukraine


Germany is well against that very dangerous move.
How Very Wise of them.

http://news.sky.com/story/1424352/ob...-barrel-of-gun


Today the Germans had talks in Washington DC



John Kerry in his visit to Nato

[Nedusa]

Stupid, stupid , stupid stupid US.... They are turning Ukraine into a war zone and they won't stop until they engage Russia... The most heavily nuclear armed country in the world.

Unbelievable really ... It's like a staring contest , see who blinks first




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[DemolitionRed]

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

Stupid, stupid , stupid stupid US.... They are turning Ukraine into a war zone and they won't stop until they engage Russia... The most heavily nuclear armed country in the world.

Unbelievable really ... It's like a staring contest , see who blinks first




.

The Ukraine has been a war zone for a year. Fatalities are around 6,000. Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out war zone with most people trying to get out and head to Kiev.

The Russians are hoping that, rather than arming the Ukrainians and guaranteeing a war, we will step back, out of fear and let them do what they want to do. We have spent a year trying to placate them with ceasefire agreements, financial deals and punitive measures against some of their diplomats. During that time many thousands of people have been killed.

Putin is like a parasite who preys on the weak. Today, whilst the west were meeting to discuss their measures against Russia, Putin flew to Egypt to meet with the Egyptian PM and discuss Russian aid to the Egyptians. He's looking at vulnerable countries around Europe and how he can get in their to extend his power.

[Livia]

The home of Russia's Black Sea Fleet is at Sevastopol in Crimea. Even though it's part of Ukraine, Russians have patrolled the streets of Sevastopol for over 200 years. It's strategically important for Russia both defensively and offensively. Russian presence in Crimea makes Ukraine hard to defend because Russia hold them on three fronts and I can't see Russia giving up its grip on it easily.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

I think the average man in the street is far more aware than you think and more than capable of absorbing what's going on in the world.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And yet ask the average man in the street who is not politically engaged, and he has NO IDEA that any of this has been going on. Probably still doesn't have any idea that there are any Cold War tensions at all. Why? Because he's had his gaze firmly (and deliberately) fixed on the Middle East / terrorist attacks. A huge and deliberate political and media game of distraction that has people ranting and raving about Islam and isolated terrorism incidents with low casualty levels, all the while ignorant to the superpowers that are clashing under their very noses. It's terrifying.

In the last ten days my husbands blog, which has been a running comentary on the conflicts in the UKraine over the last twelve months, typically had around 500 viewers a day. A week ago that number went up to 5000 viewers a day.

I agree, the government has been waving shiny objects in our peripheral vision to take our eye away from the goings on in the Ukraine.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

I think the average man in the street is far more aware than you think and more than capable of absorbing what's going on in the world.

I genuinely don't think they are. I work in a fairly "social" setting full of Average Joes and I hear multiple discussions about immigration / terrorism / the middle east every single day. I have yet to hear one person mention Ukraine or Russia. Literally, not one. Ever.

Likewise, endless FB status updates about every terrorist incident. Unusual to see any at all mention these other massive world issues.

I suspect, Livia, that you are simply lucky enough to mainly be around people who are fairly intelligent and world-aware. This is not the average man on the street. The average man on the street is almost entirely ignorant to anything that wasn't on the front page of "The Sun".

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I genuinely don't think they are. I work in a fairly "social" setting full of Average Joes and I hear multiple discussions about immigration / terrorism / the middle east every single day. I have yet to hear one person mention Ukraine or Russia. Literally, not one. Ever.

Likewise, endless FB status updates about every terrorist incident. Unusual to see any at all mention these other massive world issues.

I suspect, Livia, that you are simply lucky enough to mainly be around people who are fairly intelligent and world-aware. This is not the average man on the street. The average man on the street is almost entirely ignorant to anything that wasn't on the front page of "The Sun".

I don't entirely agree with you, but it's your opinion and I respect that.

[Iceman]

Without knowing too much on the subject I always feel quite tense knowing these two countries have stocks of smallpox. It's not as relevant to this thread just something I think about from time to time.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Without knowing too much on the subject I always feel quite tense knowing these two countries have stocks of smallpox. It's not as relevant to this thread just something I think about from time to time.

One thing for sure; if this turns into an East/West war, we won't need to turn on our TV to see it.

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Arista, your link doesn't work.


There are fundamentally two ways this can go; you could side with the Germans and not offer any assistance to the Ukrainians, therefore allowing the Russians to take over the Ukraine and hope they stop at that or you can arm the Ukrainian army so that they have a fighting chance against the Russians, where you will end up with all out war in the Ukraine. The Russians may step down but then again it may flare up into world war III.

What you do need to remember, or perhaps remind yourself of is Chamberlain who flew off to visit Hitler in 1939 to obtain his promise that he would not invade the rest of Europe. Now we have Angela Merkel meeting Putin on Wednesday in Russia to obtain his promise that he won't invade the rest of Europe if we let him have Ukraine.

The west are hoping that Russia will lose its nerve and back down from the Ukraine. I think its a very risky game to play and this could very easily escalate into world war. I suppose in the game of odds, this game of chicken might prompt the Russians to back down. Then again, the Russians might just call our bluff. The last time we were this close to World War III was in 1962 with the Cuban crisis.

Over the last week world interest has really peeked but this crisis has been brewing for over a year.

http://news.sky.com/story/1424352/ob...-barrel-of-gun

Sorry about the other link

[MTVN]

The Ukraine crisis has been heavily reported on overall and I think people are well aware of it, it was all over the news when Yanukovych was first ousted, when Crimea was annexed and when East Ukraine descended into civil war particularly with the shooting down of MH17. It's slipped out of the public eye somewhat in recent months because the conflict reached a bit of a stalemate, neither side making any major advances and with several peace proposals attempted but never lasting. And in those months of stalemate its fair to say it has been overshadowed by the rise of IS and attacks in the Western world. As recent events have shown though the Ukraine crisis was never lurking too far in the background.

I don't agree with DemolitionRed I'm afraid. Putin is belligerent, he is a proud man, he will not be dictated to, but he does not want a war and I don't believe he wants to take over the whole of Ukraine. Russia is weak right now, they could ill afford it and I really don't buy the notion of Russia as this red menace still desperate to swallow up Eastern Europe. If Putin preys on vulnerable nations then what has the West done ever since the Cold War with NATO taking more and more ex-Soviet countries under its wing while maintaining a hostile position against Russia? This is what Paddy Ashdown wrote on the situation today, I actually disagree with much of his article but do agree with this:

The West lost the greatest strategic opportunity of recent times when we reacted to the collapse of the Soviet Union, not with a long term plan to bring Russia in from the cold, but by treating Russia to a blast of Washington triumphalism and superiority. Instead of opening the doors to a strategic partnership to Moscow, we sent young men still wet behind the ears from Harvard business school to privatize their industries, and teach them the Western way of doing things. The result was a bonanza of corruption, the humiliation of the Yeltsin years and a clumsy attempt to enlarge our “Cold war victory” by seeking to expand NATO and Europe right up to the Russian border. There was always going to be a consequence of this folly and its name is Vladimir Putin.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-10032388.html

Truth is that Ukraine has always been pretty fertile for tensions like these and both the West and Russia have played a part in their explosion. Making out that Russia's involvement is the cause of all ill in the country ignores the legitimate grievances of a lot of eastern Ukraine, it ignores the questionable way in which Yanukovych was first toppled, and it ignores that the Ukraine government has thought nothing of shelling civilian areas without even a peep of condemnation from the West. In basically every other country in the world governments in power are urged to enter into dialogue with opposition groups, in Ukraine its just been a case of crush them by any means possible, and we'll even give you the weapons to do it.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The Ukraine has been a war zone for a year. Fatalities are around 6,000. Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out war zone with most people trying to get out and head to Kiev.

The Russians are hoping that, rather than arming the Ukrainians and guaranteeing a war, we will step back, out of fear and let them do what they want to do. We have spent a year trying to placate them with ceasefire agreements, financial deals and punitive measures against some of their diplomats. During that time many thousands of people have been killed.

Putin is like a parasite who preys on the weak. Today, whilst the west were meeting to discuss their measures against Russia, Putin flew to Egypt to meet with the Egyptian PM and discuss Russian aid to the Egyptians. He's looking at vulnerable countries around Europe and how he can get in their to extend his power.

Interesting post......you say Eastern Ukraine is a bombed out place and that over 5,000 Ukranians have died. So who do you think has killed all these Ukranians...? Russian troops ? But surely they are there to protect the Russian speaking Ukranians who have been systematically bombed to smithereens by their fellow countrymen because they won't cow down and surrender to the new western manipulated fascist government put into power after the scandalous so called revolution last year where the democratically elected leader of Ukraine was ran out of town by nothing short of a western planned coup d'état.

Russia saw this coming as it was always about getting the new Ukranian govt to force Russia to give up its strategically important naval bases in the Crimea.

Putin the parasite as you call him had the foresight to see his only option was to try and find a way to change the govt in the Crimea and this is what happened. Unfortunately the East of the Ukraine is now burning , certain factions in the US are beyond pissed and will actually consider trying to provoke all out war in the east of Ukraine.

Putin of course is playing Europe against the U.S. on this and is trying to sue for peace in the area, he knows if left to their own devices the Ukraine will always eventually stay a natural ally to Russia .

This whole contrived event in which thousands of innocent Ukrainians have perished is one big geopolitical gamble by the U.S. to try and further NATO 's ambitions in Eastern Europe .

Shame on the U.S for playing political games that cost innocent people their lives.

I suppose it's par for the course now with U.S they start wars with impunity only this time I think a serious escalation could easily ensue as Russia is no Libya or Iraq...

I hope cooler heads prevail in the coming months.





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[DemolitionRed]

Ukraine was politically none aligned. That is to say, like Switzerland it was neutral. It didn't have an army; it had a small home defence force and basically it sort to become a trading partner to other countries around the world and to prosper. However, to do this, it needed investment, which was offered by Europe and also Russia. The Ukrainian people wanted to accept Europes offer of support; the Ukrainian government went against those wishes and accepted the Russians offer. This was so unpopular it led to the collapse of the Ukrainian government in 2014.

At the same moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed, Russia invaded Crimea. The already destabilized Ukrainian leadership chose to capitulate and gave up Crimea to the Russians. When, soon after, a new government was in place and Russia started to threaten the Eastern borders of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian government gave up its none aligned status and asked Nato for support. Nato has so far not provided that support.

Nedusa, I can't argue with your opinion but its not an opinion that has been neutrally reported. You are supporting the Russian argument, I'm not and so I can't negotiate a resolution with you because our views are so divergent. This discussion reflects what is happening in the real world and we both know that thousands of people are dying because they aren't arguing via keyboards but with machine guns and tanks. If we can't reach an agreement, how can we expect world leaders to reach an agreement.

The horrifying truth is, they may not be able to reach an agreement and this may descend into an all out war.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Ukraine was politically none aligned. That is to say, like Switzerland it was neutral. It didn't have an army; it had a small home defence force and basically it sort to become a trading partner to other countries around the world and to prosper. However, to do this, it needed investment, which was offered by Europe and also Russia. The Ukrainian people wanted to accept Europes offer of support; the Ukrainian government went against those wishes and accepted the Russians offer. This was so unpopular it led to the collapse of the Ukrainian government in 2014.

At the same moment that the Ukrainian government collapsed, Russia invaded Crimea. The already destabilized Ukrainian leadership chose to capitulate and gave up Crimea to the Russians. When, soon after, a new government was in place and Russia started to threaten the Eastern borders of the Ukraine. The Ukrainian government gave up its none aligned status and asked Nato for support. Nato has so far not provided that support.

Nedusa, I can't argue with your opinion but its not an opinion that has been neutrally reported. You are supporting the Russian argument, I'm not and so I can't negotiate a resolution with you because our views are so divergent. This discussion reflects what is happening in the real world and we both know that thousands of people are dying because they aren't arguing via keyboards but with machine guns and tanks. If we can't reach an agreement, how can we expect world leaders to reach an agreement.

The horrifying truth is, they may not be able to reach an agreement and this may descend into an all out war.

I'm not anti west per se but do think the West need to shoulder more of the blame than Russia for this mess.

Go back 18 months and look closely at the sequence of events that played out , take your news from a variety of sources and a picture does start to appear in which certain elements in the US have deliberately inflamed this whole situation in Ukraine with I think control of Crimea as the real goal.

The west have failed in this bid and they are mad as hell and are trying to win the propaganda war having failed to actually win in Ukraine itself.

Now they are looking to escalate again to the next level by supplying lethal arms so even more innocent Ukrainians can now be killed.

Utterly disgraceful behaviour, the UK and Europe need to tell the U.S. in plain speak to back off and mind their own business.

In my opinion the U.S. is politically out of control and will eventually sooner rather than later force other world powers into military confrontation.

Why are they doing this ? Well all declining superpowers eventually try and play all the cards in their hand.

But the U.S. is rapidly becoming a busted flush...!!!





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[Northern Monkey]

Certainly a very scary situation.

I can see why Russia wants to protect its assets in Crimea but to send its troops out of its bases in Crimea and annex the area was an aggressive move,They could have just took a defensive position at their bases not take over airports,Ukrainian military bases,Government buildings and force Crimea into an illegal election in which there was only one choice as to who to vote.Pure bully tactics.

Then menacingley amassing 40,000 Russian troops onto the Eastern border and instigating an uprising and civil war in Eastern Ukraine whilst sending advanced anti aircraft launchers,guns and other military hardware to the 'rebels' and Putin blatently lying about it.

Making so called peace deals with the Ukrainian government while at the very same time arming the oposition and covertly sending Russian troops in to fight.

The problem is that Putin will not listen and something will eventually have to be done about it.If the west leave Russia to do what it wants in Ukraine then who knows where he will stop.Poland?Latvia?

Russia need to be stopped somehow,Hopefully with sanctions and talks but Putin is as stubborn as a mule and i can't see him backing down.

[bitontheslide]

As someone else stated Crimea is strategically important to Russia. The gesturing by Putin is to secure that area for Russia. Ukraine has been used as a toy by both the East and the West, the USA has been trying to subvert politics there for years.

The unfortunates in this are the Ukrainian people, they are ****ed whatever the outcome.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

Certainly a very scary situation.

I can see why Russia wants to protect its assets in Crimea but to send its troops out of its bases in Crimea and annex the area was an aggressive move,They could have just took a defensive position at their bases not take over airports,Ukrainian military bases,Government buildings and force Crimea into an illegal election in which there was only one choice as to who to vote.Pure bully tactics.

Then menacingley amassing 40,000 Russian troops onto the Eastern border and instigating an uprising and civil war in Eastern Ukraine whilst sending advanced anti aircraft launchers,guns and other military hardware to the 'rebels' and Putin blatently lying about it.

Making so called peace deals with the Ukrainian government while at the very same time arming the oposition and covertly sending Russian troops in to fight.

The problem is that Putin will not listen and something will eventually have to be done about it.If the west leave Russia to do what it wants in Ukraine then who knows where he will stop.Poland?Latvia?

Russia need to be stopped somehow,Hopefully with sanctions and talks but Putin is as stubborn as a mule and i can't see him backing down.

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




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[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




.

I have a genuine question Nedusa - not intended to be inflammatory... but, if you can see and are aware of all of this re: the US of A (and I'm not saying you're wrong) then I find it difficult to understand your stance when it comes to extremism / terrorism. It is ALL tied into exactly this warmongering that you're talking about here. Not just as a distraction technique, but the Gulf has always involved US / Russian tensions somewhere in the mix, these two juggernauts going at it with the Middle East sandwiched in the middle played a HUGE role in destabilizing the region and in allowing terrorist organizations to grow (not to mention, arming them). It's also a huge contributing factor in the angry "anti-west" sentiment that is used to twist young minds and create terrorists. But you never mention any of these issues - the huge, global issues that have been caused or at least hugely aggravated by a power-hungry United States - when posting in the various ISIS / terrorism threads. I'm just wondering why that is? Do you just genuinely keep the two issues separate?

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I have a genuine question Nedusa - not intended to be inflammatory... but, if you can see and are aware of all of this re: the US of A (and I'm not saying you're wrong) then I find it difficult to understand your stance when it comes to extremism / terrorism. It is ALL tied into exactly this warmongering that you're talking about here. Not just as a distraction technique, but the Gulf has always involved US / Russian tensions somewhere in the mix, these two juggernauts going at it with the Middle East sandwiched in the middle played a HUGE role in destabilizing the region and in allowing terrorist organizations to grow (not to mention, arming them). It's also a huge contributing factor in the angry "anti-west" sentiment that is used to twist young minds and create terrorists. But you never mention any of these issues - the huge, global issues that have been caused or at least hugely aggravated by a power-hungry United States - when posting in the various ISIS / terrorism threads. I'm just wondering why that is? Do you just genuinely keep the two issues separate?

I actually do T.S because to try and intertwine these would produce so many grey areas that trying to debate them in forums like these would become virtually impossible.

I appreciate geopolitics and terrorism are connected but we are not really privy to what really goes on behind the scenes.

But coming back to this situation with Ukraine I honestly believe the US and Russia should stand together when fighting this extremist Muslim terrorist threat, not one trying desperately to start a new Cold War with the other.

Really hope the US backs off and Russia removes all it's troops/weapons from Ukraine also.


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[MTVN]

IMO the obvious solution is to allow eastern Ukraine a sizeable degree of autonomy in a federalised Ukraine but Kiev always rejected this, unwilling to lose any centralised control and only happy to have the rebels and their aims crushed. This is not a Ukrainian people vs Russia conflict, it is not USA vs Russia, and neither should be using Ukraine as a scene for their proxy war. It is fundamentally a civil conflict between two different outlooks in Ukraine that are becoming ever harder to reconcile the more that people remain entrenched in a cold war mindset.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

IMO the obvious solution is to allow eastern Ukraine a sizeable degree of autonomy in a federalised Ukraine but Kiev always rejected this, unwilling to lose any centralised control and only happy to have the rebels and their aims crushed. This is not a Ukrainian people vs Russia conflict, it is not USA vs Russia, and neither should be using Ukraine as a scene for their proxy war. It is fundamentally a civil conflict between two different outlooks in Ukraine that are becoming ever harder to reconcile the more that people remain entrenched in a cold war mindset.

I totally agree.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

It actually amazes me how people can make posts which include the phrase "Russia needs to be stopped".....???

Stopped from what, protecting their borders against a relentless aggressive eastwards moving NATO perhaps .

Russia has been forced to respond to the events of the past 18 months whilst being painted as the aggressor.

It is not , it is actually quite a peaceful Country, a wartime longstanding ally without who's help would have resulted in Britain losing both first and second world wars.

No the only aggressive, warmongering country I can see at the moment is the one that allegedly purports to stand for freedom and democracy.

Freedom and democracy as long as you do what we say and use our currency.

This is the country that is only 200 years old and has been involved in 10 major wars. The country that spends billions attacking and bombing countries in order to save them. This is the pariah state not Russia.

People need to wake up and take their blinkers off and insist their govt stop giving unconditional support to this playground bully.




.

Now i'm not really a follower of the YouTube conspiracy theories and RT propaganda of the west orchestrating the Ukraine revolution,Although i don't discount the fact that it is possible.
Also yes i agree that the US was wrong in its Middle East involvement regarding Iraq.
The US are not the paragon of moral high ground in the world and have done alot of shady stuff in world.
However the US are not the ones invading a European country on our back door.Saying the US is bad does'nt automatically make Russia good.Russia has used alot of underhand tactics and blatently lied about them.However bad America is,They are'nt the immediate threat in Europe at the moment,More so the Middle East which yes does have a knock on effect in the world and i am not a USA!USA! flag waver.I believe America are dangerous but not as dangerous to us as Russia at this time.