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parmnion · 11-02-2019, 07:35 PM

I have just seen that next Monday nights ch4 dispatches is asking this question.

I remember posting a video on the night of the fire on here that showed the flat the fire started in and I posted about how the firemen we're aiming the hose underneath the fire rather than at the top...

Now that I remember though I think i posted without posting the video, then when I went back to try and post it the video was mysteriously missing from my original source.

But anyway...I have always believed since then that the fire service were at fault in the fact they tragically underestimated the dangers on that tragic night.

arista · 12-02-2019, 07:01 AM

Yes they Failed
due to not understanding what was going on.
They went into to the Fire at his Fridge
then left, not aware of the outside.

Cherie · 12-02-2019, 07:35 AM

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

Niamh. · 12-02-2019, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

Exactly.

They are working under the assumption that the building is up to safety standards. I mean wasn't this a council property? (or am i wrong about that?) That would be even more of a reason to believe it met fire safety regulations. The fire service are very well trained and would follow proper procedure to the letter. Very unfair to try and shift blame onto them and take some of the heat (pardon the pun) off those who were really responsible.

Livia · 12-02-2019, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

You've said it all.

Cherie · 12-02-2019, 09:59 AM

It is actually appalling that people who put their lives on the line and who will most likely suffer mentally for the rest of their lives from what they saw and heard are being put forward as the reason for so many deaths

Livia · 12-02-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

It is actually appalling that people who put their lives on the line and who will most likely suffer mentally for the rest of their lives from what they saw and heard are being put forward as the reason for so many deaths

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

Toy Soldier · 12-02-2019, 11:55 AM

The thing is, it's actually very difficult to pump water up beyond a certain height, that's just gravity / physics. And that's why there are regulations on the use of certain materials (the type used on the building!) on buildings over a certain height. Precisely because fighting a fire in a high rise presents so many additional complications.

parmnion · 12-02-2019, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The thing is, it's actually very difficult to pump water up beyond a certain height, that's just gravity / physics. And that's why there are regulations on the use of certain materials (the type used on the building!) on buildings over a certain height. Precisely because fighting a fire in a high rise presents so many additional complications.

The video I first saw was of a fire near the ground level, firemen hosing below the window as the flames climbed up the way...I saw a clip of this progrme last night and they are using the video I saw.

LeatherTrumpet · 12-02-2019, 12:13 PM

yes they should have used their levitating fire engines and crystal balls to get the fire at the top and know the whole fecking building was one big roman candle due to some twats making money and cutting corners hiding behind weak regulation

Cherie · 12-02-2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

I have just seen that next Monday nights ch4 dispatches is asking this question.

I remember posting a video on the night of the fire on here that showed the flat the fire started in and I posted about how the firemen we're aiming the hose underneath the fire rather than at the top...

Now that I remember though I think i posted without posting the video, then when I went back to try and post it the video was mysteriously missing from my original source.

But anyway...I have always believed since then that the fire service were at fault in the fact they tragically underestimated the dangers on that tragic night.

Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

parmnion · 12-02-2019, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

Niamh. · 12-02-2019, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

parmnion · 12-02-2019, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Cherie · 12-02-2019, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Yes because the flats in those tower blocks are supposed to be independantly safe and the advice it to stay put, that is of course unless the cladding surrounding the whole building isn't flammable which nobody knew until it was too late!

The firefighters were working on the premise that the building was up to standard safety wise with clear stairwells, and sprinker systems, what do you say to the residents commitee who were fighting for years to get these safety systems in place? too bad the firefighters weren't up to it on the night?

Niamh. · 12-02-2019, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Of course there was confusion, it was a massive incident, probably one most of the fire service and other emergency staff will not have seen in their lifetimes. Evacuations and timing would have been very much based on them assuming that the building didn't have flammable cladding wrapped around it also.

Toy Soldier · 12-02-2019, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

It's a pointless "captain hindsight" question; in literally EVERY situation where there are deaths, of course more lives could have been saved if the outcome was already known? Unfortunately though, all that can actually be done when a disaster is in progress is making an educated guess and hoping for the best. It's the sort of decisions firefighters have to make every day. Noticing that someone is declining in a car wreck and making the decision to cut them free - but the car was pinching an artery and that person bleeds to death in 20 seconds. Might that person have survived if they had waited? Sure. Maybe. Or maybe they would have died trapped, and we'd be asking "might they have survived if they had been cut loose".

It's irrelevant. The Grenfell deaths are on the people who chose to use flammable cladding and not to install other fire safety equipment. Any attempt to divert away from that is just... grubby.

I suppose to continue the same parallel; it's like a drunk driver who caused a crash saying "Well, that family would have survived if the firefighters and paramedics had done a better job".

Toy Soldier · 12-02-2019, 03:23 PM

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree here Parm... Getting mad because everything wasn't handled 100% perfectly in an emergency situation is pointless, because there's no such thing as perfect in an emergency situation. It was a few hours of chaos. Whereas the problems that caused it, and turned a simple kitchen fire into an entire multistorey building going up in flames, were YEARS in the making and there were countless opportunities to fix those issues. The only reason they weren't fixed is money. Pure and simple.

parmnion · 12-02-2019, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree here Parm... Getting mad because everything wasn't handled 100% perfectly in an emergency situation is pointless, because there's no such thing as perfect in an emergency situation. It was a few hours of chaos. Whereas the problems that caused it, and turned a simple kitchen fire into an entire multistorey building going up in flames, were YEARS in the making and there were countless opportunities to fix those issues. The only reason they weren't fixed is money. Pure and simple.

We will see what the programme comes up with, I am hoping my suspicions are unfounded I must admit