[Mystic Mock]

No they shouldn't face criminal charges for what their child does at School.

However I'd consider letting the School fine the parents if their child is constantly in trouble, it might make the parents teach their child right from wrong if they're being hit financially by their child's bullying antics.

[armand.kay]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

No they shouldn't face criminal charges for what their child does at School.

However I'd consider letting the School fine the parents if their child is constantly in trouble, it might make the parents teach their child right from wrong if they're being hit financially by their child's bullying antics.

This seems incredibly unfair to poorer families.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by armand.kay

This seems incredibly unfair to poorer families.

If they've got a child who's constantly bullying kids (and I mean about 10 separate cases of bullying) then the parents (as well as the Teachers) have not done their jobs to make sure that the kid isn't a psycho and as it's very hard to punish the School, the only people that can be hit financially is the parents.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

If they've got a child who's constantly bullying kids (and I mean about 10 separate cases of bullying) then the parents (as well as the Teachers) have not done their jobs to make sure that the kid isn't a psycho and as it's very hard to punish the School, the only people that can be hit financially is the parents.

Being a psycho is an illness.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Being a psycho is an illness.

Not being an actual psycho, but the child displaying characteristics of a psycho all because they have no discipline put on them by the parents or the Teachers.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by armand.kay

This seems incredibly unfair to poorer families.

So poorer families shoudn’t be held accountable for any wrong doing. Talk about giving them a licence to behave in an antisocial way.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

No they shouldn't face criminal charges for what their child does at School.

However I'd consider letting the School fine the parents if their child is constantly in trouble, it might make the parents teach their child right from wrong if they're being hit financially by their child's bullying antics.

Again this assumes that all bullies have parents who are at fault; that kids are robots / pets and if their "owners" teach them "right" then they will behave as they were taught.

But children believe it or not are actually humans with minds of their own completely separate to their parents. Especially teens, which is when the worst bullying occurs. There are all sorts of circumstances that can lead to it.

[montblanc]

no

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Again this assumes that all bullies have parents who are at fault; that kids are robots / pets and if their "owners" teach them "right" then they will behave as they were taught.

But children believe it or not are actually humans with minds of their own completely separate to their parents. Especially teens, which is when the worst bullying occurs. There are all sorts of circumstances that can lead to it.

I think it depends on what we're grading as bullying.

For me I'm thinking of children who think it's okay to beat kids up because of how they look or what they might like, or the bully doesn't like what the child is wearing, and I am thinking of cases where bullies have been so awful that the victim wants to kill themselves because they can't bare the treatment any longer, if a child is making another child feel like that then the parents have to take responsibility for that as it's not like these incidences are normal for a child to display.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Mystic Mock

I think it depends on what we're grading as bullying.

For me I'm thinking of children who think it's okay to beat kids up because of how they look or what they might like, or the bully doesn't like what the child is wearing, and I am thinking of cases where bullies have been so awful that the victim wants to kill themselves because they can't bare the treatment any longer, if a child is making another child feel like that then the parents have to take responsibility for that as it's not like these incidences are normal for a child to display.

They're not normal, no, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the parents aren't trying to stop it or have the power to stop it. The idea that if parents "step in" it'll all instantly stop is simply wrong... And even where it is the fault of a broken home, placing families that are struggling financially under more financial pressure is only likely to compound any problems that are already present.

[armand.kay]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So poorer families shoudn’t be held accountable for any wrong doing. Talk about giving them a licence to behave in an antisocial way.

That's not what I said at all lol...

Also a child misbehaving is not necessarily the fault of the parents. I was just pointing out that a fine wont have the same effect on all families.

[armand.kay]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They're not normal, no, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the parents aren't trying to stop it or have the power to stop it. The idea that if parents "step in" it'll all instantly stop is simply wrong... And even where it is the fault of a broken home, placing families that are struggling financially under more financial pressure is only likely to compound any problems that are already present.

Basically this. To just presume that its the fault of the parents is just a bit stupid and a way of just passing off the blame. Why not try and find out why the child is misbehaving and get to the root of the problem.

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

They're not normal, no, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the parents aren't trying to stop it or have the power to stop it. The idea that if parents "step in" it'll all instantly stop is simply wrong... And even where it is the fault of a broken home, placing families that are struggling financially under more financial pressure is only likely to compound any problems that are already present.

If the bully is only doing some mild actions against their victim like silly nicknames/insults then I agree that's not the parents fault, but I honestly do believe that with a basic level of discipline from the parents and teachers that a child would not bully another child to the extent that we've all witnessed when we've been at School.

[Ashley.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

So poorer families shoudn’t be held accountable for any wrong doing. Talk about giving them a licence to behave in an antisocial way.

I believe that such a system is unequal for different reasons - it would actually be more beneficial for poorer families. I'm sure the more well-off parents wouldn't mind paying a "small" fine for their child's behaviour, whereas poorer parents wouldn't want to pay various fines and would be more willing to make an effort.

Again though, it isn't always the parents' fault, so it's complicated.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Not straight off the bat because it can be covert bullying in some cases; BUT when it has been brought to the attention of the staff, if they then fail to protect the child adequately then I agree parents should have a way to take action against the school.

I remember kids being picked on mercilessly... And not just by "bullies" - I'm more talking about the unfortunate kids who were picked on by almost EVERYONE... Teachers saw it, knew about it, and turned a blind eye. Which is really pretty awful.

Was a step worse than that with our school. Teachers did ignore it generally, however with one poor kid, the teacher bullied him aswell as the other kids doing it. I actually reported that teacher to the head of year, and as far as I know nothing happened, and even 16 years on, the teacher still works at the school and kids apparently still say hes ****ing horrid. Not in a 'we hate all our teachers' way but from what my friends kids say, he has not changed one bit.

I do think parents should take responsibility for their own kids, however there is only so much parents can actually do it they have a little shit. And yes, sometimes little shits come randomly, regardless of upbringing. I do think there could maybe be sanctions for parents who seem to not give a crap even when the schools tells them that their little cherub is a little shit though, but an unsure of quite how that would work as its obviously case by case... I have heard far too many tales of schools being informed of bullying and doing nothing though. Which is clearly very wrong.

[Maru]

Every parent reading this be like... if we could be charged for every wrong our child does, oh God.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

I believe that such a system is unequal for different reasons - it would actually be more beneficial for poorer families. I'm sure the more well-off parents wouldn't mind paying a "small" fine for their child's behaviour, whereas poorer parents wouldn't want to pay various fines and would be more willing to make an effort.

Again though, it isn't always the parents' fault, so it's complicated.

This reminded me so much of this quote

'The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.'

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ashley.

I believe that such a system is unequal for different reasons - it would actually be more beneficial for poorer families. I'm sure the more well-off parents wouldn't mind paying a "small" fine for their child's behaviour, whereas poorer parents wouldn't want to pay various fines and would be more willing to make an effort.

Again though, it isn't always the parents' fault, so it's complicated.

I agree with this, Ashley. In my high school, we had a truancy issue. One year, the administration had an idea. The police came and occupied the auditorium for about a week and called students with a certain number of inexcused absences into there by intercom to issue them all citations and fines based on the amount of days they missed without a notice. So all the kids and their parents had to go to court and either bring proof proving the reason(s) for their chronic truancy or they were fined... attendance was better after that, sure, but a lot of parents were distressed by the extra financial strain.

With bullying, I think it would be difficult to tailor a system that is objective enough for what it's meant to dissolve. It may just cause those children being excluded even more hardship in it's interpretation, just because it limits the tools of the bullies. So it will just lead to further pervasive bullying by exclusion, etc, which is far worse... than if folk have a fight and then "work it out after". It's not like they can "compell" students to interact with one another in a friendly manner that isn't purposeful. It may actually worsen the situation for the student and make the bullying more deeply ingrained into the culture of the school... kind of like how it works at internet forums that have really heavy moderation, there is a lot of "exclusionary" behavior(s), etc to such a degree.

Truancy is a bit different, it's pretty black and white when someone doesn't show up to their classes or are caught down the road by a Constable eating a hamburger at Burger King.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Maru

Truancy is a bit different, it's pretty black and white when someone doesn't show up to their classes or are caught down the road by a Constable eating a hamburger at Burger King.

I don't see what this has to do with parents tbh. Unless we are talking like 10 year old kids who are deposited in school and thats that, or schools with large high fences all around so the kids literally have no freedom at all and thus cannot leave after a parent brings them in I do not think truancy is black and white at all, again especially when it comes to teens..and is something else that a parent may be responsible for but most likely is not. So yeah, I disagree 100% that truancy is black and white.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't see what this has to do with parents tbh. Unless we are talking like 10 year old kids who are deposited in school and thats that, or schools with large high fences all around so the kids literally have no freedom at all and thus cannot leave after a parent brings them in I do not think truancy is black and white at all, again especially when it comes to teens..and is something else that a parent may be responsible for but most likely is not. So yeah, I disagree 100% that truancy is black and white.

Yeah I agree, it's not the parent's direct fault if the child skips school. The only other option would be to homeschool if it doesn't stop, and that's not a possible alternative for most poor folk. The fine(s) though were a one-time thing, so it wasn't like they were there every year fining people. I'm not sure I "agree" with it personally (but it happened so..)

However, when I said truancy is 100% black and white, I meant it in the sense that they would know for sure yes, their precious angel skipped school.. We caught 'em... it's absolutely clear in those instances whether or not trauncy has actually occurred and if there was any reasoning to justify it. With bullying, it's not necessarily immediately clear if the situation is/was a result of bullying or not. Sometimes things escalate, the fact of a child behaving like a child for one, that maybe what happens instead is that two kids don't get along, not necessarily that it is a case of bullying in the most generic sense. I think even with clearest of guidelines, it would probably just add more headaches for families of kids who are just going through the process of growing up...

[Vicky.]

Ahhh right, yeah of course thats what you meant by the black and white thing My brain seems to be working very slow today