[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

That case study you yourself posted that showed a 90% success rate says enough to any person who's not being biased but just for you:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7896675
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8714319
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/risa-...l?guccounter=1
http://www.jneuropsychiatry.org/peer...nversion-d.pdf
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...rttext&tlng=en
http://casereports.bmj.com/content/2...17-222100.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386114
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018...therapy-or-ect
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2860524/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytC7GYaDvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JG9eQsjaZY

That enough for you or are you gonna ignore it like you did with the 90% success rate reported in the study you yourself posted or 98% of my earlier comments to you?

If people have an issue with your comments they're more than free to take it up with you and that's what people are doing. If you can't handle being called out on your own comments then don't post things you know will trigger people.

Well thanks, I'll have a good look at these when I've time. The study I posted was very successful apparently, which begged the question why such a lukewarm 'draw your own conclusion' summation?

Are you suggesting I temper my comments so as not to injure any fragile egos?.... not going to happen.
I can post as I see fit site rules permitting, I have had my say as is my right as a forum member. If you could stick you commenting on my thoughts on the thread topic and not me personally it would be appreciated.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well thanks, I'll have a good look at these when I've time. The study I posted was very successful apparently, which begged the question why such a lukewarm 'draw your own conclusion' summation?

Are you suggesting I temper my comments so as not to injure any fragile egos?.... not going to happen.
I can post as I see fit site rules permitting, I have had my say as is my right as a forum member. If you could stick you commenting on my thoughts on the thread topic and not me personally it would be appreciated.

BIB 1: because according to you that whole study disproved the effectiveness of ECT.

I might as well allow it at this point in light of the weakness of the few responses to my posts you've even come up with but then this is the thread to have these discussions so we might as well spin it out some more. But you could always try and read people's posts instead of ignoring 99.9% of the comments countered against yours and stop assuming I don't have any experience where ECT goes.

BIB 2: nope. I'm suggesting you stop telling people to not reply your comments if they're not made in the way you wanna hear.

[Maru]

Have to say, this is one the best threads in SD in a while... lots of information and deeply engaging...

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thanks for the evaluation, I'll add it to the list of things you don't feel I'm qualified to comment on.

If there was one case study..one, that had been offered as a successful treatment that would be something but as per there is nothing. Nothing but the sound of redway saying not very much in relation to something for which he has no first hand experience.

If you don't like the way I debate, feel free to ignore.

That's not exactly true either is it. Say what you want about my posting style or whichever but I've said loads and loads about ECT on this thread.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

BIB 1: because according to you that whole study disproved the effectiveness of ECT.

I might as well allow it at this point in light of the weakness of the few responses to my posts you've even come up with but then this is the thread to have these discussions so we might as well spin it out some more. But you could always try and read people's posts instead of ignoring 99.9% of the comments countered against yours and stop assuming I don't have any experience where ECT goes.

BIB 2: nope. I'm suggesting you stop telling people to not reply your comments if they're not made in the way you wanna hear.

BIB 1: It was not my intention to prove anything by posting that study, nor did the study in itself claim anything concrete. I asked questions in reference to the study is all.

Should you have first hand experience great, let's hear all about it.
It's rich to pontificate about something you haven't stated any real term knowledge of.

BIB2: I think you'll find it was me that was asked not to comment as my post was not made in a way you wanted to hear initially remember?
I don't have an issue with people replying t my comments as they relate to the thread, it's the character assassination I object to. Getting personally offensive isn't what I expect from a serious debate.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

BIB 1: It was not my intention to prove anything by posting that study, nor did the study in itself claim anything concrete. I asked questions in reference to the study is all.

Should you have first hand experience great, let's hear all about it.
It's rich to pontificate about something you haven't stated any real term knowledge of.

BIB2: I think you'll find it was me that was asked not to comment as my post was not made in a way you wanted to hear initially remember?
I don't have an issue with people replying t my comments as they relate to the thread, it's the character assassination I object to. Getting personally offensive isn't what I expect from a serious debate.

Just like you're not broadcasting your own first-hand experience to the world why would I do the same, hm?

Like I keep saying you can say what you want about my style of posting but you're obviously not for real if you're saying I haven't demonstrated real knowledge of ECT on here. Did you even read any of the posts at the top of this thread including the one where I outlined procedure and side-effects?

BIB 2: I made some tongue-in-cheek comments about you fear-mongering, you said I have a fragile ego. We're about even.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

That's not exactly true either is it. Say what you want about my posting style or whichever but I've said loads and loads about ECT on this thread.

You have stated it's the best and the most sound for specific issues but until about half an hour ago offered nothing to back up that theory.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Redway

Just like you're not broadcasting your own first-hand experience to the world why would I do the same, hm?

Like I keep saying you can say what you want about my style of posting but you're obviously not for real if you're saying I haven't demonstrated real knowledge of ECT on here. Did you even read any of the posts at the top of this thread including the one where I outlined procedure and side-effects?

BIB 2: I made some tongue-in-cheek comments about you fear-mongering, you said I have a fragile ego. We're about even.

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You have stated it's the best and the most sound for specific issues but until about half an hour ago offered nothing to back up that theory.

Originally Posted by Redway

Spoiler:

• Indications: psychotic depression (especially bipolar), acute episodes of schizophrenia, autism (apparently) and Parkinson’s disease. As a side they reckon that ECT isn’t used nearly enough with end-stage Parkinson’s patients.
  
• There’s some evidence it works for people with the DTs.
  
• No one knows exactly how it works but there’s got to be an electrical seizure going on upstairs for it to work. The bad motor reactions can be averted by a med called succinylcholine with the same therapeutic effect.
  
• Every candidate for ECT is given: an electrocardiogram, chem survey and CBC. Medications which make the post-ECT confusion worse (lithium and the tricyclics) are put on hold at this point.

Technique:

• Scalp gets cleaned at night where electrodes (main ECT ingredient) will be placed the next morning
  
• Dentures are taken out
  
• ECT can be either uni-or-bilateral. The charges according to seizure threshold for the patient vary from 50% over (light) to 500% over (deep). It’s always parallel to how severe/life-threatening the case is. Most docs opt for unilateral at moderate charge.
  
• Usual surgery stuff’s done after that point – ECG machines/heart monitor, all that.
  
• The patient’s always oxygenated with 100% oxygen (administered through a few mask).
  
• The seizures aren’t meant to last more than 30 seconds to one minute.

• Treatments given x3 per week—most people need 6 to 12 treatments (in other words up to a month of ECT) for it to work in full. First response usually seen after the third treatment.
  
• Since muscle relaxants were introduced fractures are super rare. ECT’s no more risky than any other major surgery.
  
• The amnesia people mention only happens to some people and doesn’t usually extend to the events a week before ECT until after the last treatment.
  
• Outside the treatment timeframe memory’s perfectly clear.
  
• ECT’s been known to cause mania in bipolar depressed people.
  
• Someone closer the top of this thread said that ECT doesn’t alter the natural course of the illness and that it just suppress symptoms. That’s true but there’s people that depressed that the ECT saved them in the same way that Lazarus resurrected from the dead. It brings people out of the danger zone.
  
• Maintenance ECT is sometimes given to people who relapse—about one treatment a week for 2 months and then tapered down.

Summarised as much as I could. Holla if you've still got questions though.

I know you didn't read that post or anything else on this thread from before you started posting.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

Mock's more than capable of sticking up for himself in this thread if he felt patronised but he hasn't so I wouldn't put words in people's mouths just because you feel insulted.

This thread's something me and Twosugars have been talking about creating for months. You reckon a quick google search is the only effort that's gone into it?

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Redway

Indications: psychotic depression (especially bipolar), acute episodes of schizophrenia, autism (apparently) and Parkinson’s disease. As a side they reckon that ECT isn’t used nearly enough with end-stage Parkinson’s patients.

That's very interesting about ECT & Parkinsons... my mother has Dystonia (very similar) and they did an experimental surgery where they inserted a metal probe into the top of her skull, connected it to a wire that goes through her neck to a battery that's put in her heart... it regularly sends impulses to the probe... anyway, it's been a miracle for her. She's never had a resting posture or what we could call a "stance" in her life... she's now walking upright where before she used to lean at a dramatic angle when walking and she can manipulate things in her hands now where she used to drop them and shake uncontrollably... I forget what the surgery is called, but they've asked our family for years to participate in that program...

Edit: I said skull, I meant brain -_- (but yeah that too)

[Twosugars]

^ That's amazing, Maru. Goes to show what a difference a modern ECT can make.

[Twosugars]

This is a NHS depression test, very similar to the previous one posted

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/depression.aspx

And here more general mood assessment tool

https://www.nhs.uk/Tools/Pages/Mood-...lf+assessments

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

^ That's amazing, Maru. Goes to show what a difference a modern ECT can make.

Yeah, I think without trying different things or pursuing new research in current areas, we may leave important rocks upturned ... like that wonderful article I posted in SD about Chinese Animal Testing and how ethics in the US have affected research... yeah there's potential those conditions can be done poorly without proper oversight, but the downside is if we don't do any testing, we won't really learn more about those conditions...

China Is Genetically Engineering Monkeys With Brain Disorders
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/foru...d.php?t=342279

I still think chronic pain and mental health have a significant link... they seem to really do in particular with women... which might be one reason why the number of women is higher, that they often suffer worse? For Fibromyalgia & IC, the number of women is also dramatically high... IC is a problem with the bladder, but considered a nerve disorder, so it's a bit bizarre...

[Maru]

Redway, this is a suggestion, but maybe update your OP with the educational material you've posted... since your thread is so sticky and all

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Maru

Redway, this is a suggestion, but maybe update your OP with the educational material you've posted... since your thread is so sticky and all

You mean the ECT stuff?

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Thank you, Niamh. Your and other mods support for this thread is gratefully appreciated!

Some ideas for future discussion before Redway gives us an overview of ECT:

-noticed there's fair few members on antidepressant medication, so propose creating an anonymous poll in order to identify which meds are taken so that we can then discuss them in more detail; as in any poll thread, there will be an opportunity to post if anybody wishes, but the poll itself would be anonymous
-anxiety as opposed to depression, what is it and its symptoms
-autism
-suicidal ideation (thinking of suicide) - cry for help
-overview of personality disorders - plain introduction listing them and providing symptoms plus when personality traits turn into personality disorders?

Let us know what would you like covered.

BIB 1: I'd have to do that in a separate thread but it's not a bad idea at all.

BIB 2: I take it you've got borderline PD in mind more than others?

[Mystic Mock]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

A quick google search could get you the outline of a procedure and possible side effects.... it doesn't make you some oracle on the subject...clinicians have debated for decades about the efficacy of ECT, so why do you feel the need to advocate it to the point of insulting anyone who challenges the concept?
You were rude and condescending to mock earlier in the thread and have done nothing but barrack me on the subject for several hours. I'm going to leave it for now until I've read some of the info you got around to posting.

Thanks for having my back Kizzy.

But I feel like me and Redway were just giving each other a strong debate more than being rude to each other, at least I hope we both came off that way anyway as no rudeness was intended.


I'm not gonna take sides on the debate between you guys though as other people are more informed than me on this subject on who has more valid points on the topic. Plus I like you both and don't want to take sides in a heated debate like this.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Redway

BIB 1: I'd have to do that in a separate thread but it's not a bad idea at all.

BIB 2: I take it you've got borderline PD in mind more than others?

Re.1 Yes, I think so too. A separate poll with discussion.
Re.2 Well, I'd like us to cover all of them, but perhaps most common could be given more prominence (borderline, antisocial, narcissistic etc). So maybe brief intro first and then go into detail

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Re.1 Yes, I think so too. A separate poll with discussion.
Re.2 Well, I'd like us to cover all of them, but perhaps most common could be given more prominence (borderline, antisocial, narcissistic etc). So maybe brief intro first and then go into detail

BIB - yup, makes sense to me. I just know that borderline out of all the PDs has more parallels with things like depression but we can touch on all of them, yh.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Redway

You mean the ECT stuff?

Yes

[Maru]

Pretty sure the surgery was this...

Deep Brain Stimulation
https://www.dystonia-foundation.org/...in-stimulation

Deep brain stimulation (DBS) is a surgical procedure used to treat a variety of neurological disorders, including movement dystonias such as dystonia. A battery-powered stimulator —essentially a brain pacemaker—is surgically implanted and delivers electrical stimulation to the areas of the brain associated with dystonia. The stimulator is implanted into the chest or abdomen, and extension wires connect the stimulator to leads deep in the brain.

How Does DBS Treat Dystonia?

Although DBS has proven to be a safe and effective treatment for a variety of disorders, the exact mechanism of action is not fully understood; doctors know it works, they just can’t exactly explain why. Dystonia symptoms result when excessive signaling from the brain causes involuntary muscle contractions and movements. The stimulation delivered to the brain by the DBS stimulator suppresses theses excessive signals, thereby lessening the dystonia symptoms.

Sort of like when they overfill the bladder during hydrodistension and piss the little nerve-endings off and interrupts them... lead to months of pain relief... Science ...

[Redway]

I thought as much. DBS is used for severe OCD as well.

[Redway]

Out of interest does anyone on here have misophonia /4S (sensitivity to certain soft sounds)?

[Twosugars]

I've complied a list of subforums on the largest mental health forum, psychforums.com
I thought it may help us choose other topics for discussion.
Here it goes:

Anger Management

Anti-Psychiatry Forum

Cutting and Self Injury Forum

Grief and Loss Forum

Hope, Healing and Coping.

Relationship Forum

Remorse

Mental Health and Significant Others, Family & Friends Forum

Bullying Forum

Child Abuse Forum

Domestic Violence

Sexual Abuse and Incest Forum

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Forum

Agoraphobia Forum

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) Forum

Social Phobia Forum

Generalized Anxiety Disorder Forum

Tourette's Syndrome Forum

Autism Forum

Oppositional Defiant Disorder Forum

Asperger's Syndrome Forum

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Forum

Stuttering, Dyslexia, Learning Difficulties Forum

Selective Mutism Forum

Reactive Attachment Disorder Forum

Conduct Disorder Forum

Childhood Disorder NOS Forum

Alzheimer's Disease Forum

Dementia Forum

Delirium Forum

Cognitive Disorder NOS Forum

Depersonalization Disorder Forum

Dissociative Identity Disorder Forum

Dissociative Fugue Forum

Dissociative Disorder NOS Forum

Dissociative Amnesia Forum

Anorexia Nervosa Forum

Bulimia Nervosa Forum

Binge Eating Disorder Forum

Munchausen Syndrome Forum

Factitious Disorder Forum

Shoplifting Addiction

Trichotillomania Forum

Intermittent Explosive Disorder Forum

Compulsive Lying Forum

Bipolar Disorder Forum


Seasonal Affective Disorder Forum

Clinical Depression Forum

Postpartum Depression Forum

Antisocial Personality Disorder Forum

Borderline Personality Disorder Forum

Avoidant Personality Disorder Forum

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Forum

Histrionic Personality Disorder Forum

Schizoid Personality Disorder Forum

Delusional Disorder Forum

Schizophrenia Forum

Sexual Addiction Forum

Gender Identity Disorder Forum

Sexual Dysfunctions Forum

Paraphilias (Fetishes, BDSM) Forum

Sexual Disorder NOS Forum

Insomnia Forum

Nightmare Disorder Forum

Primary Sleep Disorders Forum

Undifferentiated Somatoform Disorder Forum

Somatoform Disorder NOS Forum

Somatization Disorder Forum

Pain Disorder Forum

Hypochondriasis Forum

Conversion Disorder Forum

Body Dysmorphic Disorder Forum

Spending Addiction Forum

Substance Abuse Disorders Forum

Internet Addiction Forum

Food Addiction Forum

Medication

Therapy

Coping Methods & Techniques

Womens Health

Mens Health

Physical Health

Parenting Forum