[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Maru

Yeah I kind of agree with this. There's lots of things many of us are "accosted" for in society relating to stigmas growing up... part of becoming a whole person is rebutting and saying f** society and what it feels.

Though if your childhood was not supportive, it's very difficult to get off the ground. The emphasis shouldn't be on fixing "society" though, because society is not "fixable" and can't be micromanaged in that way... but rather, finding like-minded folk who will support those individuals and help guide them on their path.

I would think the lack of these types of role-models are more the issue. In my experience though, it seems many people prefer a victim-narrative than paving their own way. The problem is when it's most of us claiming dire need in some manner, it's not very good for the social fabric. I read a statistic yesterday, that nearly 40% of kids hitting 21 (or something like that) were born to unwed mothers... I knew it was high, but not quite that high.

I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I might have got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You brought unhappiness into the discussion so no winder you use the hang your head smiley


Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I'm sure I got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

It's down to how you look at it I guess. (I don't think that angle is thick at all, 2S) Society for me is the last point of change that is affected by culture. It's usually hit&miss how laws/mantras/"movements"/etc effect how people interact, so I tend to see it as a passive change, not a direct one. i.e. It's not a "fixed" equation, like we plug in a couple of variables and everyone starts behaving differently, interacting in a healthier way, etc. There is this thought we can place in a middleman (like a school system) inbetween the individual who desires change and society in every instance to create the effect we want. I actually think it's down to exposure: more & more folk running into other kids/people who have come out of the closet earlier and earlier in their life. If those interactions are healthy and not force-fed, then that will tend to lead to progress I think... but if it's not done in a healthy manner, there will backlash. So I think it comes down to homosexual folk to being that first/second/third generation of role-models... not happy go-lucky narratives of "gay people good!1"... for instance, I heard plenty of the pro-Christian/anti-Satanism rhetoric growing up in the US and in Texas schools, but I seldom hear anyone quote a Bible and there's only been an increase in secularity ever since. (Hopefully I explained that well.)

If we wait on society to pick up all the burden, then changes will take way too long*(edit) I think.

Re: Victim-narrative relates to that above, but it's more to do with cultural trends (all peoples), not just LGBT folk. If more and more people are looking towards the external for the solution(s) to their problems, then they're not part of the solution. That will and has caused a deficit in positive role-models over time... for instance, higher suicide rates in males (lack of father figures don't help).

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.

People are unhappy at a lot of things in life, work, money marriage...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Haven't had a chance to talk to all those progressives but I wonder how far their acceptance goes? Do they still think homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners etc. That's the line the pope takes for example. I.e. they'd happily embrace homos etc but still think we're wrong about our sex lives, just politely not say it?
Re. your second para, you know that I had Islamist terrorists in mind, but ta for the mental image Would choking them on matzo (no water allowed) be the method of killing?

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.

If you're going to kill a Frommer, best thing to use would be a pork chop.

[LeatherTrumpet]

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

The reasons are pretty obvious for that to be fair. The man is attracted to other men and not to women. His religion tells him that he's not allowed to be with a man, but he doesn't WANT to be with a woman... but there is an expectation to be a husband and father and people are going to ask questions. But not if you're a priest - priests aren't supposed to be interested in men OR women - so it was historically a natural "hiding place" for gay men who didn't want people asking why they weren't interested in women. Though of course, repression inevitably leads to "scandal" which is, I believe, a large part of the reason that Protestantism started allowing their "holy men" to have a wife / family, to make it a more "normal" path through life rather than a huge alternative lifestyle decision.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

Also, what is the story with all this "testing of faith"? I never understood why it would be so important to god to want people to blindly believe he exist? Why?

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by parmnion

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

I don't know, compared to the actual content of the Book of Job it's pretty easy-going . It's so grim

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

Oh ok, that's fair enough. I did think when I was younger that priests became paedophiles because of the weird sexual repressions and thinking kids would keep quiet etc but I've changed my mind about that now and yeah I agree it probably just looked like a Utopian existence to a paedophile

[Gstar]

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Germyle

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

So it is possible then...with some mind control?