[lime]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Can you point out where on this thread I ever said anything of the sort, you seem very keen to paint me as anti Irish because I had the temerity to take off the rose tinted spectacles when talking about Irish economics, its okay for you to love your adopted home but I am not allowed to love mine because of past history that took place in a time when neither of us were born, it is possible to like where you live and like where you came from you know, I am sure you wouldn't be very happy is emigrants into Ireland said they hated living there but that is another story ... this debate started off because Ireland was held up a shining example of economic bliss which Scotland when it gets its independence should aspire to

Seeing at Economics is so simple maybe you can explain why the HSE in Ireland are recruiting nursing staff from abroad while they are happy to lose the graduates that were educated in the country because they wont increase their pay and conditions? so all that education and training is lost to another country.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/heal...rate-1.3061034

the other thing the irks me greatly is during the boom Celtic tiger years not one new hospital was built, did you know that residents in Donegal have to travel to Galway Hospital for some operations and chemotherapy, living in the Dublin bubble I doubt this will affect you as you are well serviced by local hospitals, it isn't quite the same everywhere

i have no tinted glasses...i hate to repeat myself..but I will for you.
Ireland has many problems with housing and heath care ..much like the UK...i am not keen to paint you as anti Irish..when you talk about the Irish. and say they export their citizens thats more than insulting...your words not mine.

Cherie I have a last bit of shopping to do,,,would love to talk to you more on this tropic

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because as simply as I can put it... "money" doesn't exist. In the modern world, those numbers and pieces of paper don't represent any physical product. It's an illusion that functions by agreement; a pound (or dollar, or euro) is worth something because everyone agrees that it's worth something, and thus, the whole thing is essentially based on market confidence and so, fluctuates like the stock market. Nothing needs to actually HAPPEN to devalue the pound. Its value drops every time there's an announcement that decreases global trust in the British economy. The value dropped when the referendum was announced. It dropped when the result was announced. It creeps up a little when we look close to securing a deal that allows free trade with the EU to continue - and then drops again the closer we get to a "no deal" Brexit. If we actually END UP WITH a no deal Brexit, it's likely to crash very badly.

Why that matters in terms of what your shopping costs, is that we rely heavily on international trade. We have to, as a geographically small, highly populated country. So the less the pound is worth globally vs other currencies, the more it costs to import. The global price doesn't change, but it costs more in GBP, because the GBP is weaker. So products manufactured abroad become more expensive, fuel becomes more expensive (which affects absolutely everything), certain raw materials used for what manufacturing does occur in the UK become more expensive...

We're a small island with a large population and we aren't and cannot be self sufficient. Free trade, or as close to it as possible, with our closest neighbours is essential in maintaining the absolute basics. Putting all other reasons for voting for Brexit aside... Leaving the European Market is a disaster.

See this is where I can't connect those in favour of voting for independence for Scotland who now have an issue with leavers wanting independence from Europe, its more or less the same thing, Scottish independence could have heaped the same problems with exiting the EU as the leave voters will, and there was no guarantee you would have been welcomed back in to the EU and even if you were it wouldn't have happened very quickly, so you would have had to strike your own trade deals so I don't see a huge difference in the two votes

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by lime

i have no tinted glasses...i hate to repeat myself..but I will for you.
Ireland has many problems with housing and heath care ..much like the UK...i am not keen to paint you as anti Irish..when you talk about the Irish. and say they export their citizens thats more than insulting...your words not mine.

Cherie I have a last bit of shopping to do,,,would love to talk to you more on this tropic

I have just given you a link which proves my point My other bug bear is the Irish Rail service, it hasn't moved forward in 35 years, I took a short journey a few years back and I would have been just as quick in my car, no cut in journey time from Tralee to Dublin it takes just as long as when I was 10. Yet the government found the cash to install useless water meters in every home which now lie unused as residents quite rightly told them to take a hike

Anyway Merry Christmas!

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Seeing at Economics is so simple maybe you can explain why the HSE in Ireland are recruiting nursing staff from abroad while they are happy to lose the graduates that were educated in the country because they wont increase their pay and conditions? so all that education and training is lost to another country.....

I'm not sure how this can be relevant to your argument Cherie... as exactly the same thing has been happening in the NHS for decades.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not sure how this can be relevant to your argument Cherie... as exactly the same thing has been happening in the NHS for decades.

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imo

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Cherie

See this is where I can't connect those in favour of voting for independence for Scotland who now have an issue with leavers wanting independence from Europe, its more or less the same thing, Scottish independence could have heaped the same problems with exiting the EU as the leave voters will, and there was no guarantee you would have been welcomed back in to the EU and even if you were it wouldn't have happened very quickly, so you would have had to strike your own trade deals so I don't see a huge difference in the two votes

and in addition to the above would you not have buggered up anyone from the EU living in Scotland as well, given you would no longer have been part of the EU, does that make the vote for independance group racist?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imo

You were using the fact that nurses train in Ireland and then go elsewhere due to poor conditions and pay in Ireland, and import nurses from elsewhere, as an example of poor Irish economics... and have been adamant that "things are better" in the UK.

I was pointing out that the UK has been "exporting its nurses" after training - and filling the gap with nurses from abroad - for decades.

It seems quite relevant?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

and in addition to the above would you not have buggered up anyone from the EU living in Scotland as well, given you would no longer have been part of the EU, does that make the vote for independance group racist?

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Twosugars]

Mess, I was reading the Private Eye last night (after 6 months of avoiding politics) and they say the Daily Mail has been critical of brexit since they changed chief editor in September.
Anybody can confirm that?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Mess, I was reading the Private Eye last night (after 6 months of avoiding politics) and they say the Daily Mail has been critical of brexit since they changed chief editor in September.
Anybody can confirm that?

The DM will be critical of Brexit if there's an indication that public opinion has shifted to be critical of Brexit, IMO. Vultures and popularists, catering to whatever the tooth-gnashing of the week dictates. Public are mad about Corbyn? CORBYN STORIES! Public mad about immigration? YAY BREXIT BOO FOREIGNERS! Oh wait, the public is worried about Brexit now? BOO BREXIT DOOM AND GLOOM!

[Twosugars]

Oh I know they're opprotunistic liars. But the fact remains they're the most widely read paper, especially amongst the older demographic. So in that respect very influential.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

that's not true though, Scotland wanted its own Scottish pound currency which would never have been accepted and was never considered valid outside of la la land. Also, the only thing that gave Scotland a fighting chance of being a viable independent entity was its oil revenue which was always pie in the sky and has since tanked. So Scotland independence ... good luck with that.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You were using the fact that nurses train in Ireland and then go elsewhere due to poor conditions and pay in Ireland, and import nurses from elsewhere, as an example of poor Irish economics... and have been adamant that "things are better" in the UK.

I was pointing out that the UK has been "exporting its nurses" after training - and filling the gap with nurses from abroad - for decades.

It seems quite relevant?

No it is not relevant as I never held up England as an example of an economy that Scotland could aspire to also I never said things were better in the UK, I said I personally had more opportunity in the UK.....Lime said that Ireland looks after its own, well if looking after your own is training them up and then offering poor pay and conditions so you go elsewhere while they can get cheaper labour from abroad, that is hardly looking after your own and just in case you are in any doubt I never said England looks after its own either because I am sure that is the next thing you will attribute to me....

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You would still have been outside the EU though, as you would have to be accepted back in and that wouldn't have happened overnight ...if at all so basically you were quite happy to risk it get independence so no different from Brexit in many ways

[Rectu]

I am not sure that main opinion will change... Probably more amount of people will vote in general but mostly will be for Brexit as it was before. I know a couple of Brits who 3 years ago decided to buy property in Italy https://tranio.com/italy/ and now are living there. So in the first vote they voted "for Brexit" not understand full problems it will bring to them. Because now they will have to visit police every 3 months for their residence papers when before the vote once per year only.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imo

Oh Cherie ffs, I live in Ireland which is why I said I was curious to see how they would do in a similar size country, you've really misrepresented what my original comment was, acting like I said we were perfect or something.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Oh I know they're opprotunistic liars. But the fact remains they're the most widely read paper, especially amongst the older demographic. So in that respect very influential.

The Sunday Mail was always anti Brexit, the DM was pro, not sure what it is now

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh Cherie ffs, I live in Ireland which is why I said I was curious to see how they would do in a similar size country, you've really misrepresented what my original comment was, acting like I said we were perfect or something.

Yes it is a similar size country but that would be all that Ireland and Scotland would have in common as ROI would still be in the EU and Scotland wouldn't, I was just pointing out some economic facts and got all sorts thrown at me for my trouble anti Irish indeed

[themiz]

What a utter mess.

[joeysteele]

I think another vote is more likely but isn't likely to solve anything.
I'd vote and still vote to remain if that was on the ballot, rejecting both May's deal and no deal myself.

I can see it being insisted that remain is on the ballot paper.
I then can see an outcome where a 20%+ figure comes for May's deal.
Higher 30s for no deal, with near a similar figure for remain.

The awful division and hostility that surfaced from the last vote gaining new momentum after a second vote.

If Parliament is near deadlocked, for me a general election would be preferable with an extension of article 50.
It would leave the Cons either advocating no deal or Mrs May's.

Labour and Corbyn would be forced too, to then detail a more clear plan.
I think Corbyn could find himself trapped with a Party demanding remain.

So then see what the arithmetic of Parliament is after such an election.
Some seats always change hands, even a move of around 25 seats could alter things considerably.

A second referendum for me is likely all that will come about, recalling the abuse I got and what I saw others get canvassing in the 2016 referendum.
Doesn't however give me an appetite for another .