[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I am not I never suggested you take a breather, I suggested if you are not interested back out, two different things. Honestly all those masters are going to waste

Oh true I did say that... twice i think. its a good advice for you to take rn. It seems like you’re getting agitated a little too easily is all.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oh true I did say that... twice i think. its a good advice for you to take rn. It seems like you’re getting agitated a little too easily is all.

Are you missing Brillo, got no one to pounce on...what a shame

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Are you missing Brillo, got no one to pounce on...what a shame

I’d swap her in for you, at least she made it interesting.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

I’d swap her in for you, at least she made it interesting.

now who is agitated

[Withano]

...still you...

[Cherie]

Anyway back to the point, has anyone bothered to read the article Livia posted?

[Niamh.]

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

Worth a read... and I feel like the author has been nowhere near Mumsnet.

Trans rights will be durable only if campaigners respect women's concerns.
Women opposed to the trans agenda are informed by their experience of misogyny, not by bigotry, writes Kristina Harrison, a political campaigner

https://www.economist.com/open-futur...omens-concerns

posting this again for those who can't read back

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic

Yes Miss

[ethanjames]

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

[Withano]

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

[Withano]

Also the same people seem very fine with mixed sexes wards, as in say 5 men and 5 women, but **** off will we have 9 women and 1 transwoman!

Something tells me nobody was really ever talking about the article.

[Toy Soldier]

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

[Cherie]

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

Just took a quick glance over your 74 posts (more than double anybody else) not one seemed productive, its just arguments and baits. Look closer inward maybe.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

crazy hysterical women eh?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

Also, I don't think the author was saying that womens fears are irrational at all considering she says :

I am horrified by the number of trans women threatening extreme, misogynistic violence. I see, almost daily, violent threats on social media aimed at women demonised as TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). Last September a 60-year-old woman in London was punched by a six-foot-tall trans woman (pictured above) more than three decades younger. The woman, Maria MacLachlan, was there simply to attend a meeting to discuss the self-identification proposals. An art exhibition in April in San Francisco featured T-shirts printed with “I punch TERFs” and smeared with fake blood, and baseball bats, axes and sledgehammers painted in the colours of the trans flag. (These exhibits were removed after protests.) By contrast, I’ve yet to see one instance of women threatening to physically attack trans people. It raises a question: is the biological and socialised sex of trans women relevant and more predictive of some individuals’ behaviour than gender identity

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

Well mainly prisons really, also in sports

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by ethanjames

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

A lot of opinions have been posted. Not one has been posted on behalf of a transperson.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A lot of opinions have been posted. Not one has been posted on behalf of a transperson.

many people in this thread said that trans men wouldnt want to be in a mens ward for their own safety and they basically spoke on behalf of us.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?



*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

[ethanjames]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

good post ts!