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Old 24-02-2019, 11:15 AM #26
Vicky. Vicky. is offline
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Originally Posted by Toy Soldier View Post
I'm not for animal testing in any way, but I also think there are huge issues with paid human testing. For things that are "almost ready for use" and are therefore extremely low risk it's less of an issue, but when it's early testing and high risk, paid testing becomes a real issue because only people who are desperate for money are likely to do it. And it's likely to be in countries where people who are desperate for money are REALLY desperate and saying "no" becomes a less valid choice... and I have some serious concerns about what that ends up looking like.

Basically, it has high potential to transition from "testing on animals" to "testing on poor people" who have used it as a last resort and that doesn't sit very well either.
Yup thats exactly what would happen. I mean, theres this thing called flu camp where they are testing flu vaccines, and from memory, it was being paid something like 3.5k for 7 days. Being injected with the flu and then the vaccines tested on you. I almost did it a few years back, but it turned out I was pregnant again so I pulled out but I am fairly sure they would not have tested on me while pregnant anyway. That kind of money for a few days of being ill just sounded amazing, I didn't really think of the risks at all as I figured..well flu is awful but...you won't die or anything. But...it depends what they were injecting me with really..I could have a bad reaction and die.

And even that, would be stuff thats already been tested and is in theory 'safe' for humans. I don't know the answer, but I do know that making it so we had to test on people would just prey on those who are struggling for money. Of course there is the knee jerk reaction of 'we can test them on prisoners who have murdered' or whatever, but there are a fair few issues with that too...we cannot sentence someone to life in prison, but tag onto that sentence that they must be available to have random drugs tested on them...its basically a version of the death penalty back!
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always cook meals, i did have chinese takeaways the year before the corona **** happened
but now not into takeaways anymore
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Did you get them delivered from Wuhan?
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I would just like to take a second to congratulate Vicky, for creating the first Tibb post that needed chapters and a bibliography.
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Old 24-02-2019, 12:47 PM #27
Tom4784 Tom4784 is offline
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“The reason we use animal tests is because we have a comfort level with the process . . . not because it is the correct process, not because it gives us any real new information we need to make decisions.”
Melvin E. Andersen, director, computational systems biology, Hamner Institutes for Health Sciences, USA

"Despite claims by the research industry, chimpanzees have proven to be a poor model for human cancer research" states a recent study. Chimpanzee tumours are extremely rare and biologically different from human cancers. The study concludes: "It would be unscientific to claim that chimpanzees are vital to cancer research and reasonable to conclude that cancer research would not suffer if the use of chimpanzees were prohibited..."
ATLA 37, 399-41


“The predictive value of the non-human SHIV-challenge model [primate model of AIDS] is not supported by this experience.”
British Medical Journal 19 November 2008, doi:10.1136/bmj.a2571


“... the only scientific analyses made to date have been critiques that have revealed nonhuman primate models to be of little relevance to human medicine.”
Nature Medicine 14, 1011-1012 (1 October 2008)


A research group headed by Professor Ian Roberts, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine has called for an end to animal experiments following an investigation. Their findings, published in the British Medical Journal (28th Feb 2004), show that experiments are not justified and can’t be applied to humans.

"The reason why I am against animal research is because it doesn't work, it has no scientific value and every good scientist knows that."
Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, M.D., 1986, Head of the Licensing Board for the State of Illinois.


"Results from animal tests are not transferable between species, and therefore cannot guarantee product safety for humans...
In reality these tests do not provide protection for consumers from unsafe products, but rather they are used to protect corporations from legal liability."

Herbert Gundersheimer, M.D., Baltimore, Maryland, 1988.


"Animal experimentation is fallacious, useless, expensive, and furthermore, cruel."
G. Tamino, Congressman and researcher at the University of Padua, Italy.


"Vivisection is barbaric, useless, and a hindrance to scientific progress. …There are, in fact, only two categories of doctors and scientists who are not opposed to vivisection: those who don't know enough about it, and those who make money from it."
Dr. Werner Hartinger, 1988/89, surgeon of thirty years, West Germany


"I agree that for the benefit of medical science, vivisection has to be stopped. There are lots of reasons: the most important is that it is simply misleading, and both the past and present testify to that."
Professor Salvatore Rocca Rossetti, surgeon and professor of urology at the University of Turin, cit. Ray and Jean Greek, Specious Science (New York/London: Continuum, 2002), p.169.


"The assumption that an animal species can stand as a reliable model for human biological reactions amounts to playing Russian Roulette with the patient's life."

Dr Claude Reiss, DLRM Newsletter, No.9, Autumn 2002.


"It is impossible to evaluate the safety of using animal studies to predict the safety of drugs and chemicals in man."
D. V. Parke, Emeritus Professor of Biochemistry, University of Surrey, 1 May 1996.

"My own conviction is that the study of human physiology by way of experimenting on animals is the most grotesque and fantastic error ever committed in the whole range of human intellectual activity."
Dr. G. F. Walker, 1933.


"Why am I against vivisection? The most important reason is because it's bad science, producing a lot of misleading and confusing data which pose hazards to human health."
Dr. Roy Kupsinel, M.D., 1988, medical magazine editor, USA.


"Conclusions drawn from animal research, when applied to human beings, are likely to delay progress, mislead, and do harm to the patient. Vivisection, or animal experimentation, should be abolished."
Dr. Moneim Fadali, M.D., 1987, F.A.C.S., Diplomat American Board of Surgery and American Board of Thoracic Surgery, UCLA faculty, Royal College of Surgeons of Cardiology, Canada.


"Not one single animal experiment has ever succeeded in prolonging or improving, let alone saving, the life of even one single person."
Paper published by Dr. med. Heide Evers, D-7800 Freiburg, 1982.


“What good does it do you to test something in a monkey? You find five or six years from now that it works in the monkey, and then you test it in humans and you realize that humans behave differently from monkeys, so you’ve wasted five years”

Dr Mark Feinberg, leading AIDS researcher.

"The lack of correlation between toxicity data in animals and adverse effects in humans is well known."
A. Gorman, et al., Comparative Endocrinology (New York, John Wiley and Sons, 1983), p.33

"Nobody has become a surgeon because of having operated on animals. He has only learnt wrongly through animals.”
Professor Salvatore Rocca Rossetti, surgeon and professor of urology at the University of Turin, cit. Ray and Jean Greek, Specious Science (New York/London: Continuum, 2002) p.169

"What is the value of routine tests in animals for prediction of chemical teratogens? The correlation between known effects in laboratory animals and clinical adverse effects in very low".
Dr. A. P. Fland, Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, vol.71, 1978, pp.693-6

"Some findings in colon cancer mice, which were very good models, actually led to clinical trials in humans which resulted in an increase in cancer."
Dr. Bjorn Ekwall, Chairman of the Cytotoxicology Laboratory, Toxicolog In vitro, Aug-Oct 1999

"The extensive animal reproductive studies to which all new drugs are now subjected are more in the nature of a public relations exercise than a serious contribution to drug safety."

Dr. J. E. Green of the National Cancer Institute Laboratory, Journal of the National Cancer Institute, 2001, 93:976

"For the great majority of disease entities, the animal models either do not exist or are really very poor. The chance is of overlooking useful drugs because they do not give a response to the animal models commonly used."
Dr. C. Dollery, in Risk-Benefit Analysis in Drug Research, p.87
I could do the same and cherry pick quotes that benefit my argument but it's a waste of time to do so. Good science is efficiency and ethics mashed together, if animal testing wasn't viable in the field of medicine then it wouldn't be practised. It's not a good thing, it's a dark side to progress that we must accept fully.

Would you rather we test out drugs on the poor and vulnerable?
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