[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Like I said in another thread, there is no one zombie-eaque Jewish mind, and to say there is, is an actual anti semitic trope, and not a pretend one like criticising Israel = anti semite.

You're right but the JC didn't commission the polls that found 87% consider him an anti-Semite and that nearly half would consider emigrating if he were PM. Nor were they behind the resignations of Jewish MPs from Labour because of anti-Semitism in the party

[Toy Soldier]

The situation in Israel is - quite literally - one of THE most complex and long-running political conundrums in history... it's constantly ridiculously over-simplified (by many people, with many agendas, for many reasons) in ways that would be comical if it wasn't so infused with tragedy and violence.

People trying to score "political sides" points in the space of a tweet, on an issue that could fill a shelf with textbooks.

[arista]

Originally Posted by arista

The Utter Truth
Matters Slim.
That MP was Not booked for her show - Fact.

Meanwhile Slim, yesterday posted Fake Twitter

Posing Again for Slim

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You're right but the JC didn't commission the polls that found 87% consider him an anti-Semite and that nearly half would consider emigrating if he were PM. Nor were they behind the resignations of Jewish MPs from Labour because of anti-Semitism in the party

The fact that 87% consider him an anti-semite is proof of the value of marketing. Are we then to dismiss Jews that actually support Corbyn and also the Jews that are running in the election for the labour party? Are they not real Jews?

Has anyone got actual quotes from Corbyn that prove him to be anti semitic, or is it just whispers? I could find multiple quotes from Johnson that reveal his actual racism. I agree wholeheartedly that Corbyn didn't deal with the issues in the labour party particularly well, but they are at least addressing them, which is more than you can say for the party leading in the polls, that those same 87% will have no trouble voting for.

No one is blameless, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that only labour have their issues.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

Posing Again for Slim

You can pose for me any day, in your tight little cut off purple hot pants.

I haven't seen the papers this morning, did she not provide any evidence that he'd agreed to go on her show?

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

You can pose for me any day, in your tight little cut off purple hot pants.

I haven't seen the papers this morning, did she not provide any evidence that he'd agreed to go on her show?

NO

which means you are Wrong.............................

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

NO

which means you are Wrong.............................

If that is the case then you are absolutely right - I was wrong.

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

If that is the case then you are absolutely right - I was wrong.

How Nice to See

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by arista

How Nice to See

It's called honesty. Is there anything you want to admit to being wrong about since...say...2016?

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

It's called honesty. Is there anything you want to admit to being wrong about since...say...2016?

Yes Honesty
The 2016 Vote was a Revolution.
Farage Spooked Cameron

Look at this General Election
60 seats in a LibDem/Welsh and Green Remain Pact.

And Today the Bank Of England
backed the New Deal for Brexit.

[Twosugars]

Arista not answering the question.
And employing a distract technique from the four D's of media playbook

[arista]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Arista not answering the question.
And employing a distract technique from the four D's of media playbook

What is your Question?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

The fact that 87% consider him an anti-semite is proof of the value of marketing. Are we then to dismiss Jews that actually support Corbyn and also the Jews that are running in the election for the labour party? Are they not real Jews?

Has anyone got actual quotes from Corbyn that prove him to be anti semitic, or is it just whispers? I could find multiple quotes from Johnson that reveal his actual racism. I agree wholeheartedly that Corbyn didn't deal with the issues in the labour party particularly well, but they are at least addressing them, which is more than you can say for the party leading in the polls, that those same 87% will have no trouble voting for.

No one is blameless, but it's intellectually dishonest to pretend that only labour have their issues.

Not dismiss them but I think it's fair to point out that they are a minority. Anti-Semitism rarely manifests itself in explicit anti-Jewish quotes but Corbyns associations and his world view have undoubtedly made it more mainstream in today's Labour party imo. Things like laying wreaths at the graves of Palestinian terrorists, sharing platforms with Hamas, expressing outrage at a clearly anti-Semitic mural being removed, the decrying of 'Zionist' influence in British politics - it all contributes to many Jewish people feeling uncomfortable and feeling under threat. Some of the testimonies from Jewish Labour members about the bullying they are now subject to within the party speaks volumes

I appreciate that anti-Semitism and anti-Israel are not the same thing but a lot of anti-Semitism now is coded in language against 'Zionism' and the 'Israel lobby'. I posted an example last night ranting about the influence of the Israel lobby which harks back to the classic anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews having too much money and too much power in the world

[Twosugars]

Jewish lobby groups exist and do their lobbying. How stating that is antisemitic?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Jewish lobby groups exist and do their lobbying. How stating that is antisemitic?

Oops you didn't even use 'Israel lobby' there

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Oops you didn't even use 'Israel lobby' there

Bc their attitude to Israeli government policies is varied so they cant be described as israel lobby.

I looked up the term to understand your reservations. I see some see it as antisemitic
So I quote a defence of it
In a 2004 speech, Goldberg said, "There has been an awful lot of talk in the last few years about the rise of the Jewish lobby and the influence of the Jewish lobby. It used to be that you couldn't talk about this sort of thing. When I wrote [the book] Jewish Power in 1996... I was accused by various Jewish lobbyists of inflating and buying into the old myths of international Jewish conspiracies simply by the use of the title."[4] Goldberg disagrees with the sensitivity towards the use of the term, arguing that: "There is such a thing as a Jewish lobby, that the network of organizations that works together to put across what might be called the Jewish community's view on world affairs is not insignificant, it's not an invention, but it is not some sort of all-powerful octopus that it's sometimes portrayed as these days."[4] Mearsheimer and Walt wrote in 2006 that "even the Israeli media refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'",[21] and stated the following year that "AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'."[22]
Wikipedia

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Not dismiss them but I think it's fair to point out that they are a minority. Anti-Semitism rarely manifests itself in explicit anti-Jewish quotes but Corbyns associations and his world view have undoubtedly made it more mainstream in today's Labour party imo. Things like laying wreaths at the graves of Palestinian terrorists, sharing platforms with Hamas, expressing outrage at a clearly anti-Semitic mural being removed, the decrying of 'Zionist' influence in British politics - it all contributes to many Jewish people feeling uncomfortable and feeling under threat. Some of the testimonies from Jewish Labour members about the bullying they are now subject to within the party speaks volumes

I appreciate that anti-Semitism and anti-Israel are not the same thing but a lot of anti-Semitism now is coded in language against 'Zionism' and the 'Israel lobby'. I posted an example last night ranting about the influence of the Israel lobby which harks back to the classic anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews having too much money and too much power in the world

Some valid points, but are you sure that anti semitism doesn't manifest itself publicly?

I think we just see things differently when it comes to your point about criticism of Israel. Israel is an apartheid state, unquestionably, and undeniably. Are you denying or challenging that fact? Israel is also a country that is turning increasingly and even more worryingly rightward, and this pretense that it's become coded is actually the opposite way to how I see things; discussion and debate is actually being shut down because the mere mention of the way successive Israeli governments have treated Palestinians, leaves the accuser open to being labelled an anti semite.

The emphasis on Zionism rather than jews was a way to to avoid such accusations and talk honestly about what is happening over there, without the fear of being labelled as anti-jewish, and that's also now being flipped upside down.

I strongly disagree with the suicide attacks against Israel, but Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist for fighting for his freedom. The UN gives a country under occupation the right to form an army and fight back. These terrorist organisations were setup to fight back. Our media only pushes one side of this issue. None of us know how we would react if we were treated the same way Palestinians.

I just know when one side is oppressed, and one side is the oppressor, I'll always try and support the oppressed. I don't see Corbyn as any different.


I just don't see the same energy when Boris jokes about syria becoming the new Dubai as soon as they've swept the bodies out of the streets, or his letterbox comments, or many of his other directed and pointed racist comments. For Corbyn, it's all innuendo and whispers, with Johnson, people just ignore it because they don't care about genuine racism.

[Tom4784]

It's easy to focus on whispers about an enemy then confronting an issue in your backyard. There was a quote that Reaper posted recently from a Rabbi which basically said that focusing on the left allows far right extremism, that can and has affected jews, to thrive.

I personally think Corbyn needs to step down because he's damaged goods at this point and the boomers are doing their typical thing of believing their feelings over facts. I don't think Labour can win under Corbyn but a lot of the character assassination that has taken place against him from people who brush racism on their own side under the rug.

If there is actual evidence of Corbyn being anti-semitic then crucify him for it but at the moment, it just seems like it's the machine in action, the same machine that convinced people to vote against their own interests, that's slowly making out that the NHS is a failing industry in order to sow seeds for privatisation etc.

[Twosugars]

Speaking of terrorism, I had a further look at various groups, prompted by MTVN posts.

Have you all heard of Irgun? Many later prominent Israeli politicians like Begin or Shamir belonged to it and it waged military and terrorist fight for Israel's independence

Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.

The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[3][4][5][6] Specifically the organization "committed acts of terrorism and assassination against the British, whom it regarded as illegal occupiers, and it was also violently anti-Arab" according to the Encyclopćdia Britannica.[7] In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments; in media such as The New York Times newspaper;[8][9] as well as by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry,[10][11] the 1946 Zionist Congress[12] and the Jewish Agency.[13]
Wikipedia

[arista]

[Twosugars]

IDS, an architect of universal credit, responsible for human misery across the land.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

Bc their attitude to Israeli government policies is varied so they cant be described as israel lobby.

I liked up the term to understand your reservations. I see some see it as antisemitic
So I quote a defence of it
In a 2004 speech, Goldberg said, "There has been an awful lot of talk in the last few years about the rise of the Jewish lobby and the influence of the Jewish lobby. It used to be that you couldn't talk about this sort of thing. When I wrote [the book] Jewish Power in 1996... I was accused by various Jewish lobbyists of inflating and buying into the old myths of international Jewish conspiracies simply by the use of the title."[4] Goldberg disagrees with the sensitivity towards the use of the term, arguing that: "There is such a thing as a Jewish lobby, that the network of organizations that works together to put across what might be called the Jewish community's view on world affairs is not insignificant, it's not an invention, but it is not some sort of all-powerful octopus that it's sometimes portrayed as these days."[4] Mearsheimer and Walt wrote in 2006 that "even the Israeli media refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'",[21] and stated the following year that "AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America's 'Jewish Lobby'."[22]
Wikipedia

I think the criticisms of the term on that article are far stronger than that solitary defence

Talk of a 'Jewish Lobby' in the UK is particularly far wide of the mark and just not really a thing outside of conspiracy circles

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Some valid points, but are you sure that anti semitism doesn't manifest itself publicly?

I think we just see things differently when it comes to your point about criticism of Israel. Israel is an apartheid state, unquestionably, and undeniably. Are you denying or challenging that fact? Israel is also a country that is turning increasingly and even more worryingly rightward, and this pretense that it's become coded is actually the opposite way to how I see things; discussion and debate is actually being shut down because the mere mention of the way successive Israeli governments have treated Palestinians, leaves the accuser open to being labelled an anti semite.

The emphasis on Zionism rather than jews was a way to to avoid such accusations and talk honestly about what is happening over there, without the fear of being labelled as anti-jewish, and that's also now being flipped upside down.

I strongly disagree with the suicide attacks against Israel, but Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist for fighting for his freedom. The UN gives a country under occupation the right to form an army and fight back. These terrorist organisations were setup to fight back. Our media only pushes one side of this issue. None of us know how we would react if we were treated the same way Palestinians.

I just know when one side is oppressed, and one side is the oppressor, I'll always try and support the oppressed. I don't see Corbyn as any different.


I just don't see the same energy when Boris jokes about syria becoming the new Dubai as soon as they've swept the bodies out of the streets, or his letterbox comments, or many of his other directed and pointed racist comments. For Corbyn, it's all innuendo and whispers, with Johnson, people just ignore it because they don't care about genuine racism.

Well I'm not going to be drawn into defending Israeli government policy but given the debate around it I wouldn't consider it a 'fact' and I think we have to be very careful about terminology. Your description of Palestinian terrorists seems overly romanticised given the tactics they use, the language they use (which is definitely explicitly anti-Semitic), their ideology and the backing they get from some quite powerful nations.

In any case though its one thing to criticise Israel's actions but what is more iffy is whipping up this idea of a malign 'Israeli'/'Zionist' influence on our politics and our decision makers. It implies that there are these shadowy Jewish financiers in the background pulling the strings and so every bad thing that happens is then blamed on the 'Israel lobby'. That's what harks back to old anti-Semitic stereotypes as does this idea that Israel is some uniquely evil country and any sympathy you have with them is almost criminal. Take this example of a Labour MP who was trying to improve conditions in Gaza:

She went on the Today programme to talk about the difficulties faced by parents of sick children in Gaza in getting permits to travel to visit them in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Israel’s deputy ambassador to the UK, Sharon Bar-Li, also appeared on the programme. She invited Allin-Khan to continue their discussion at a meeting at the embassy.

After that meeting Allin-Khan tweeted: “It was a pleasure to meet @SharonBarli again at the Israeli Embassy to continue our constructive discussions about access to healthcare for Palestinians. I look forward to continuing to work together on such crucial humanitarian issues.”

And that’s when it all kicked off.

“The pushback was just horrific, unlike anything I have ever experienced,” said Allin-Khan. “I didn’t anticipate a backlash of this nature at all. I was genuinely astonished, and deeply disappointed, at this unleashing of antisemitic abuse on Twitter.” The tweets included accusations that she was a “direct collaborator in apartheid” for having held talks with Israeli diplomats, and of having been “bought by the Zionists for a bag of silver and a duplex in Marbella”. One said: “Disgusting. Collaboration with occupiers and oppressors. Shameless.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-human-rights

That's the sort of thing that has become standard fare

[arista]

Originally Posted by Twosugars

IDS, an architect of universal credit, responsible for human misery across the land.

Can that Lady beat him?

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I think the criticisms of the term on that article are far stronger than that solitary defence

Talk of a 'Jewish Lobby' in the UK is particularly far wide of the mark and just not really a thing outside of conspiracy circles

Haven't had the time to read the full article.

I meant american organisations tbf, like J Street of which I read some time ago.

My concern is about ordinary people unaware of semantic nuances who may be labelled as antisemite for no good reason whatsoever.
I mean I have jewish blood and I'm in danger of being labelled bc I had no clue about the fact jewish lobby as a term is a no-no.
And as I said earlier calling all lobby groups pro israel ie pro israeli state policies is simply not true.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Well I'm not going to be drawn into defending Israeli government policy but given the debate around it I wouldn't consider it a 'fact' and I think we have to be very careful about terminology. Your description of Palestinian terrorists seems overly romanticised given the tactics they use, the language they use (which is definitely explicitly anti-Semitic), their ideology and the backing they get from some quite powerful nations.

In any case though its one thing to criticise Israel's actions but what is more iffy is whipping up this idea of a malign 'Israeli'/'Zionist' influence on our politics and our decision makers. It implies that there are these shadowy Jewish financiers in the background pulling the strings and so every bad thing that happens is then blamed on the 'Israel lobby'. That's what harks back to old anti-Semitic stereotypes as does this idea that Israel is some uniquely evil country and any sympathy you have with them is almost criminal. Take this example of a Labour MP who was trying to improve conditions in Gaza:


That's the sort of thing that has become standard fare

I wasn't romanticising the palestinians; I was just highlighting the conditions they are forced to endure, and showing that the other side of the discussion is or should actually be about freedom and rights, because they are an indisputably occupied country. I'd rather everyone be able to reach an agreement through dialogue, but I can't honestly say how the people of this country would react if, say, Germany invaded and occupied us tomorrow.

I'm not romanticising my compatriots by saying we'd be well within our rights to form a militia to fight against them, but to the Germans we'd also be terrorists. Those are the distinctions between an occupier and the occupied.

England is one of the countries that should be able to have an honest discussion about such issues because of our past of just carving up and redrawing maps has contributed to so many deaths/wars over the years, that we still see to this day.

There are no peoples that are inherently "better or worse" than another set of people, yet the distinction with this whole discussion seems to rest on which country currently holds all the power.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...jewish-people/

It reads:

Corbyn organised the Apr. 1977 defence of Jewish populated Wood Green from a Neo-Nazi march
EDM3933 7 Nov. 1990: Corbyn signs motion condemning the rise of antisemitism
EDM634, 11 Apr. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion condemning David Irving for being a Holocaust Denier
EDM1124, 6 Nov. 2000: Jeremy Corbyn praised the ‘British Schindler’, Bill Barazetti, for his WW2 kindertransport
EDM742, 28 Jan. 2002: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion praising football clubs for commemorating Holocaust Day
EDM1233 30 Apr. 2002: Corbyn was a primary sponsor on a motion condemning antisemitism
11 May 2002: Jeremy led a clean up of Finsbury Park Synagogue after an anti-Semitic attack
EDM1691, 23 July 2002: Corbyn condemned attacks on a synagogue in Swansea
EDM123 26 Nov. 2003: Corbyn officially condemns attacks on 2 Istanbul synagogues
EDM298, 16 Dec. 2003: Jeremy Corbyn signs motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
2004: Jeremy condemned news that anti-Semitic hate crimes had risen for yet another year
EDM461, 21 Jan. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the French government’s moves to ban the Jewish Kippa in French Schools
EDM717, 26 Feb. 2004: Jeremy signed a motion praising Simon Wiesenthal for bringing Nazi perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice
EDM1613, 8 Sept. 2004: Corbyn co-sponsored a bill expressing fears for the future of the United Synagogue Pension Scheme
EDM1699, 11 Oct. 2004: Jeremy Corbyn condemned arbitrary attacks on civilians in Israel and Palestine
EDM482, 12 Jan. 2005: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
EDM343, 16 June 2005: Jeremy condemned the desecration of a Jewish cemetery in east London
EDM1343, 11 Jan. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion commemorating International Holocaust Day
EDM1774, 8 Mar. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn led condemnations of an Iranian Magazine soliciting cartoons about the Holocaust
EDM1267, 16 Apr. 2006: Jeremy Corbyn condemned Bryan Ferry for anti-Semitic remarks
EDM2414, 26 June 2006: Jeremy Corbyn praised British war veterans for their efforts to combat the Holocaust
EDM2705, 10 Oct. 2006: Jeremy signed a motion marking the 70th anniversary of Cable Street
EDM271, 14 Nov. 2007: Jeremy co-sponsored a motion lamenting the poverty and social exclusion East London Jews suffered
EDM153, 12 May 2008: Corbyn praised the efforts of the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto during the uprising of 1944
EDM2350, 27 Oct 2008: Jeremy Corbyn signs a motion marking the 70th anniversary of the horrors of the holocaust
EDM173, 8 Dec. 2008: Jeremy condemned the Press Complaints Commission for refusing to sanction The Times for antisemitism
EDM461, 14 Jan. 2009: Jeremy Corbyn condemned a wave of recent anti-Semitic incidents targeted
EDM605, 27 Jan. 2009: Corbyn signed John Mann’s motion condemning antisemitism on university campuses
EDM917 26 Feb. 2009: Jeremy signs a motion condemning antisemitism on the internet
EDM1175 24 Mar. 2009: Corbyn signs a motion praising the heroism of British Jews during Holocaust
EDM337, 2 Dec. 2009: Jeremy Condemned Iran’s treatment of Jewish minorities in Iran
EDM850 9 Feb. 2010: Jeremy joins in calls for Facebook to do more to fight antisemitism
EDM891: 22 Feb 2010: Corbyn co-sponsors a motion calling for Yemen’s Jews to be given refugee status to the UK
EDM908 27 Oct. 2010: Corbyn praises work of late Israeli PM in his pursuit of a 2 state solution
EDM1360, 27 Jan. 2011: Corbyn co-sponsored a motion praising the ‘never again for anyone initiative’
EDM1527, 3 Mar. 2011: Corbyn backed Ian Paisley’s motion condemning the anti-Semitic remarks of Dior’s lead fashion designer
EDM2870, 14 Mar. 2012: Jeremy Corbyn condemned the sale of Nazi memorabilia at an auction in Bristol
EDM2866, 14 Mar 2012: Jeremy Corbyn co-sponsored a bill condemning the rise of antisemitism in Lithuania
EDM2899, 20 Mar. 2012, Jeremy Corbyn condemned a terrorist attack on a Jewish school in Toulouse
EDM168, 12 June 2012, Jeremy co-sponsored a motion condemning anti-Semitic attacks during EURO 2012 in Poland
EDM 195 13 June 2012: Jeremy attacks BBC for cutting Jewish programmes from Its schedule
EDM 1133 1 Mar 2013: Corbyn joins a chorus of calls condemning antisemitism In sport
1 Oct. 2013: Corbyn was one of the few MPs who defended Ralph Miliband from Daily Mail antisemitism
EDM 932 9 Jan 2014: Jeremy praises Holocaust Memorial’s work on antisemitism education
EDM 165 22 June 2015: Jeremy condemns a Neo-Nazi rally planned for a Jewish area of London
Sat 4 July 2015: Jeremy co-planned a counter-fascist demo in defence of Jewish residents at Golders Green. The march was re-routed
18 Nov. 2015, Corbyn used one of his first PMQs to challenge Cameron to do more on antisemiUsm
9 Oct 2016: Corbyn, close to tears, leads commemoration of the Battle of Cable Street
3 Dec. 2016: Corbyn visits Terezin Concentration Camp to commemorate Holocaust victims
In 2017-19 Jeremy introduced 20 new measures to combat antisemitism in the Labour Party
Corbyn has already received extensive support from Orthodox Jewish leaders. Thirty-four leading rabbis signed a letter praising Labour’s “respected leader” and describing attacks on him as “irresponsible”. The letter was attacked as a fake by Corbyn’s critics, who were later forced to withdraw the claim when evidence was revealed by the SKWAWKBOX that they were aware of its authenticity.

A letter by Jewish citizens published by the Sunday Times was similarly attacked.



Pretty clear that if you're always standing up for the oppressed, eventually you'll make enemies on all sides.