[Ammi]

Originally Posted by angus58

Glad I missed that or I would probably have thrown something at the television This is the sort of mindset that Labour has encouraged.

I'm done debating with idiots still apportioning blame everywhere except where it belongs. LABOUR had THIRTEEN years in power, so why are people still making excuses for this morally bereft government, who cynically "imported" voters - which unfortunately for them didn't work for them this time did it?

My sons will probably never be able to get on the housing ladder, so my heart isn't bleeding for a lot of people in the public sector cushioned from the realities the rest of us have to cope with. If they don't like it, let them try finding work in the private sector. It's disgusting that 80% of new jobs created whilst Labour were in power have gone to immigrants. So much for working hard ALL MY LIFE and paying my taxes and national insurance contributions, bringing up my sons, as a single parent for many years, without claiming handouts, and instilling in them a sense of responsibility and independence, only to find that they are the ones shoved to the back of the queue whilst newcomers to this country muscle their way to the front.

Silly me, I should have just let them run wild, impregnate little slags, and allow other people to pick up the bill for their fecklessness.

I agree I had already come to the conclusion that 'being a good role model' is a thing of the past. My mum used to tell me 'cheats don't prosper' - we can't say that to our kids because all around them its quite obvious they do. Hard work, conscientiosness, honesty - all a thing of the past. Scams and scroungers - our future? So sad but so true. However I'm proud of my kids and that they work and pay taxes and are self sufficient for what thats worth these days

[InOne]

Originally Posted by rhino

On 'This Morning' right now some pathetic couple with 7 children, living on benefits. She say's its her 'right' as a woman to have children (but not her right to pay for them apparently) He says he can't get a job that he would 'like' doing so he wont bother coming off benefits but he might think about it if he found a job he would enjoy. She says she'll have 20 children if she wants its her right. What *******ing planet - have them castrated - These 'adults' are children and Labour is their parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw that. Bet it made a lot of people very angry. The guy seemed ok but the woman had a really warped sense of reality. God knows what her kids are like.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by angus58

I can't have a serious debate with someone who thinks £30k a year is peanuts. I and plenty of people I know live on far less, AND in London, AND doing long hours, AND don't expect bloody handouts because they CHOSE to have kids. How dare you sneer at such a wage. You really are living in cloud cuckoo land. I have two sons both in full time employment and one supporting a family of four without handouts, and he is on nowhere near £30k.
You need to get your head out of your arse and join the real world where HARDWORKING people work rather than scrounge and make sensible choices about whether or not they can afford to have children.

So take your elitist opinions and shove them where the sun don't shine.

As for your last point, you can only speculate my dear, so you're the deluded one, going on about what might have been, instead of what actually happened. A bit hypocritical of you isn't it if you want to discuss actual FACTS. You lose the argument already, because here you are whingeing about necessary cuts in public spending which at least the TORIES are tackling. What did you expect after that socialist shower of useless incompetents mortgaging this country for the foreseeable future because of their profligacy? Labour are guilty in the first degree for encouraging feckless, lazy, bone idle benefit scroungers, to the extent that those in genuine need get pushed to the back of the queue, and are forced to jump through hoops to get their entitlements, because they are honest and don't know how to play the system. Why should pensioners who have worked and contributed to the system all their lives be living in poverty whilst layabouts who've never had a job have loads of kids they can't afford to keep themselves? I can't see their offspring being the saviours of this country when they grow up either

Your so called "facts" are laughable - lifted straight from the Labour Book entitled "Do as I say, Not what I do". Lucky you, to be on a salary of over £30k - if you can't manage on that there's something wrong with YOU.

Let's hope the government keeps the cuts coming and end this dependancy culture once and for all.

Again you keep going back to lazy scroungers (which isnt everyone on benefits and also Labour didnt introduce the welfare state in 1997 lol) ...we are NOT talking about that here, we are talking about HONEST WORKING CONTRIBUTING people.

Im sorry but your anecdotal evidence isnt universally applicable, its not a black and white world and whilst many families on 30 k will be comfortable, with the current lack of affordable housing and high childcare costs some wont easliy afford a drop. lets face it 30 k is the combined income of two parents on an unskilled/semi skilled wage (eg/ a support worker and a binman...hardly middle class)...or a single parent paying high rent charges and childcare costs may struggle...particularly those that have to commute a distance to work. claiming child support when you are a contributing member of society is not scrounging, it is what we pay our taxes for, that and a decent education for our kids, a decent healthcare system, police protection etc etc...

http://england.shelter.org.uk/profes...spects_of_life

And the main point is cutting vital services and support for the ordinary working people of Britain whilst ignoring the huges loss in govt income from tax avoidance and the fact that the financial sector have paid little consequence for their actions and are free to carry on as before is a CRIME. And they might want to tackle the disproportionate gap between the highest earners and lowest in the private sector too

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/PCSTaxGap.pdf

Labours public spending record....hardly any difference from the previous Tory govt (prior to the global finacial crisis and the drop in tax revenue since that time)

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk...ebt_chart.html

[Angus]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Again you keep going back to lazy scroungers (which isnt everyone on benefits and also the Labour didnt introduce the welfare state in 1997 lol) ...we are NOT talking about that here, we are talking about HONEST WORKING CONTRIBUTING people.

Im sorry but your anecdotal evidence isnt universally applicable, its not a black and white world and whilst many families on 30 k will be comfortable, with the current lack of affordable housing and high childcare costs some wont easliy afford a drop. lets face it 30 k is the combined income of two parents on an unskilled/semi skilled wage (eg/ a support worker and a binman...hardly middle class)...or a single parent paying high rent charges and childcare costs may struggle...particularly those that have to commute a distance to work. claiming child support when you are a contributing member of society is not scrounging, it is what we pay our taxes for, that and a decent education for our kids, a decent healthcare system, police protection etc etc...

http://england.shelter.org.uk/profes...spects_of_life

And the main point is cutting vital services and support for the ordinary working people of Britain whilst ignoring the huges loss in govt income from tax avoidance and the fact that the financial sector have paid little consequence for their actions and are free to carry on as before is a CRIME. And they might want to tackle the disproportionate gap between the highest earners and lowest in the private sector too

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Documents/PCSTaxGap.pdf

Labours public spending record....hardly any difference from the previous Tory govt (prior to the global finacial crisis and the drop in tax revenue since that time)

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk...ebt_chart.html

You are a totally deluded labour apologist who will not accept that 13 years of mismanagement and incompetence has led us once again to a precipice from which the incoming government are left to try and pull us back. No doubt you also support strike action too that always affects the ordinary HARDWORKING folk in this country. Personally, I hope the government fight the selfish and greedy unions, since no one sector of the workforce in this country should be able to hold the rest of us to ransom. I have no time for avaricious union bosses encouraging (one would even say forcing) members to strike to cause the maximum disruption and upset for the rest of us, out of some selfish determination to preserve jobs and privileges for their own, with no thought as to who will pick up the tab. I have always loathed and detested trade unions and I can still remember the Callaghan government when the unions practically ruined this country. Let's hope this government take them on and defeat them.

And don't try and twist my words - both my sons are HARDWORKING and in FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT, one of whom supports a family of 4, and both are on a lot less than £30k. Neither of them were brought up to think the world OWES them a living. They contribute to society and pay their taxes so what the hell are you on about?

Furthermore, Labour HAS encouraged the workshy, feckless, scrounging layabouts we see all about us with their hordes of kids that other people pay for, so don't deny it. Cut their benefits and force them to take any job and CONTRIBUTE instead of sitting on their fat arses and expecting others to keep them. You seem to think the world owes everybody a living! Well it doesn't. These are hard times and people should be glad they've even got a job these days. It's about time that welfare benefits were reined in for all but the truly needy, not seen as a lifestyle choice for lazy gits.

It's pointless trying to debate with a dyed in the wool socialist who puts the blame everywhere but where it deserves to be, and what's more discriminates in favour of those working in the public sector as if they are somehow MORE important than the rest of us.

Oh, and what about all the above issues you mention that need addressing? Ask yourself why Labour, who had THIRTEEN long years in power, DID NOTHING, and in fact left us in a worse state, yet here you are still defending them and their appalling record. This present government's immediate concerns is to cut spending and most normal, sensible, reasonable people with even a basic grasp of economics and housekeeping know that it has to be done.

I can't be arsed to respond to any more of your posts - I've made my position clear, and we will never agree in a million years.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by rhino

On 'This Morning' right now some pathetic couple with 7 children, living on benefits. She say's its her 'right' as a woman to have children (but not her right to pay for them apparently) He says he can't get a job that he would 'like' doing so he wont bother coming off benefits but he might think about it if he found a job he would enjoy. She says she'll have 20 children if she wants its her right. What *******ing planet - have them castrated - These 'adults' are children and Labour is their parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the government's right to change the law. Cut the scroungers off their benefits and see what happens then

Then they should have their children taken away if they can't feed or shelter them properly!

Disgusting woman!

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by arista

"without children our future is ****ed "


You need to watch the DVD or BluRay
Surrogates starring Bruce Willis.

Life In The Fast Lane.

There are too many people in the world as it is.

There is no need for families to have lots of children IF they can't afford them.

If they want big families but CANNOT afford them.. why don't they have a job in a school? Be a nursery nurse or teacher or child minder.. then you are with lots of children everyday and doing something useful and not scrounging off the government to bring up your own sprogs

Amen!

[Tom]

Originally Posted by rhino

On 'This Morning' right now some pathetic couple with 7 children, living on benefits. She say's its her 'right' as a woman to have children (but not her right to pay for them apparently) He says he can't get a job that he would 'like' doing so he wont bother coming off benefits but he might think about it if he found a job he would enjoy. She says she'll have 20 children if she wants its her right. What *******ing planet - have them castrated - These 'adults' are children and Labour is their parent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A cap needs putting on it in cases like that when women are only popping more out for the benefits and for peopel like him, well they shouldn't even be on benefits. I reckon they should recieve shopping vouchers instead that can only be spent on certain thinsg so that if they want some kind of social life then they'll have to go out and god forbid ... get a job.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by angus58

You are a totally deluded labour apologist who will not accept that 13 years of mismanagement and incompetence has led us once again to a precipice from which the incoming government are left to try and pull us back. No doubt you also support strike action too that always affects the ordinary HARDWORKING folk in this country. Personally, I hope the government fight the selfish and greedy unions, since no one sector of the workforce in this country should be able to hold the rest of us to ransom. I have no time for avaricious union bosses encouraging (one would even say forcing) members to strike to cause the maximum disruption and upset for the rest of us, out of some selfish determination to preserve jobs and privileges for their own, with no thought as to who will pick up the tab. I have always loathed and detested trade unions and I can still remember the Callaghan government when the unions practically ruined this country. Let's hope this government take them on and defeat them.

And don't try and twist my words - both my sons are HARDWORKING and in FULL TIME EMPLOYMENT, one of whom supports a family of 4, and both are on a lot less than £30k. Neither of them were brought up to think the world OWES them a living. They contribute to society and pay their taxes so what the hell are you on about?

Furthermore, Labour HAS encouraged the workshy, feckless, scrounging layabouts we see all about us with their hordes of kids that other people pay for, so don't deny it. Cut their benefits and force them to take any job and CONTRIBUTE instead of sitting on their fat arses and expecting others to keep them. You seem to think the world owes everybody a living! Well it doesn't. These are hard times and people should be glad they've even got a job these days. It's about time that welfare benefits were reined in for all but the truly needy, not seen as a lifestyle choice for lazy gits.

It's pointless trying to debate with a dyed in the wool socialist who puts the blame everywhere but where it deserves to be, and what's more discriminates in favour of those working in the public sector as if they are somehow MORE important than the rest of us.

Oh, and what about all the above issues you mention that need addressing? Ask yourself why Labour, who had THIRTEEN long years in power, DID NOTHING, and in fact left us in a worse state, yet here you are still defending them and their appalling record. This present government's immediate concerns is to cut spending and most normal, sensible, reasonable people with even a basic grasp of economics and housekeeping know that it has to be done.

I can't be arsed to respond to any more of your posts - I've made my position clear, and we will never agree in a million years.

Again, this is not about defending Labour, I am pointing out that they have pretty much continued where the Tories left off aside from a few things like the minimum wage, working time directive, modernising schools and hospitals...so any argument that their spending got us in this mess is a lie.

I am also not a socialist and I'll ignore most of the rant as I havent even mentioned most of it, except to say Im not a socialist, I believe in fairness, equal opportunities, workers rights (for ALL workers and within reason) I dont believe in striking without very good reason and with support of the majority of workers involved. I believe we should have decent public services to enable us to continue to be productive and contribute to society. If you disagree with that then yes we will never see eye to eye, oh well

Yeh benefit cheats are piss takers and we need to deal with them, theyre generally the uneducated and we should be intervening where kids arent going to school, perhaps withholding child benefit as part of that intervention. If children dont even get an education what hope have they got? We shouldnt be dealing with it by penalising ordinary hard working people. But the biggest piss takers are in those in the financial sector that got us in this mess who are taking billions of pounds a year in bonuses and stashing their money in offshore accounts, I know who I'm more angry with!

The scale of the cuts (EDIT: The ConDemns are planning (ok Arista)) is alarming and should be handled better and with real fairness END OF

[arista]

"The scale of the cuts is alarming"

Hang on a Minute
we do not know yet.

20 oct. is the day we find out.

[arista]

"(EDIT: The tories are planning (ok Arista)) "#

No its Conservative - LibDem Power.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by arista

"(EDIT: The tories are planning (ok Arista)) "#

No its Conservative - LibDem Power.

Ya like the Lib Dems get any say lol...they get thrown a few titbits from the Tory table haha

[arista]

"like the Lib Dems get any say "

Yes they do.
Nick Clegg is doing that today.

It is a 2 party power - End Of.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by arista

"like the Lib Dems get any say "

Yes they do.
Nick Clegg is doing that today.

It is a 2 party power - End Of.

Keep on keeping on Arista...We're ConDemned lol

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Lucy.

Well maybe if you ever know someone who earns over 44k and isn't in the picture perfect idea everyone seems to have that their loaded you'll think differently.

If they earn over 44k pa I don't particularly want my tax going to pay for them to have an extra few quid in their pocket because they chose to have kids. I already pay into an education system for their children.

Child benefit was brought in after the war to help ease poverty and to boost birth rates. We don't need that incentive anymore. Child benefit should only go to those on a low wage.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Livia

If they earn over 44k pa I don't particularly want my tax going to pay for them to have an extra few quid in their pocket because they chose to have kids. I already pay into an education system for their children.

Child benefit was brought in after the war to help ease poverty and to boost birth rates. We don't need that incentive anymore. Child benefit should only go to those on a low wage.

Exactly - in a nutshell.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

If they earn over 44k pa I don't particularly want my tax going to pay for them to have an extra few quid in their pocket because they chose to have kids. I already pay into an education system for their children.

Child benefit was brought in after the war to help ease poverty and to boost birth rates. We don't need that incentive anymore. Child benefit should only go to those on a low wage.

I am not working yet as I am at Uni but I have to say I agree 100% with this comment, it says everything really.