Originally Posted by thesheriff443

in a nut shell, good people have to kill bad people to keep the rest of the good people safe.

bad people kill good people and good people kill good people without wanting to,

all this eye for an eye making the whole world blind is utter nonsense.

the human race has survived for thousands of years killing each other, it can be with a gun or a knife, or starvation.

I think we'll all be pretty safe if they're locked up in prison, so anything extra to that is purely for revenge, and not punishment.

It's not utter nonsense at all, and if you claim it is, then you need to expand on your reasons for it. We have laws in place to deal with criminals, that don't include murder.

The last point doesn't make any sense to me, because it treats the starting point and conclusion as the same, regardless of what happens in the middle. We know better now, and our morality has demonstrably evolved.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by The Baby Jesus

I think we'll all be pretty safe if they're locked up in prison, so anything extra to that is purely for revenge, and not punishment.

It's not utter nonsense at all, and if you claim it is, then you need to expand on your reasons for it. We have laws in place to deal with criminals, that don't include murder.

The last point doesn't make any sense to me, because it treats the starting point and conclusion as the same, regardless of what happens in the middle. We know better now, and our morality has demonstrably evolved.

i think you using jesus as your user name as gone to your head!, eye for an eye making the whole world blind is such an unrealistic frame of mind, in the world we live in today.

if you set out to take another life you should lose the right to keep yours.

i dont want these men tortured but a quick end to their lifes would not go against my mind set.

[Ammi]

..nothing is going to change the fact that Lee is dead or the horrific way he was killed for his family or take away that pain...those are nightmares that they will live with forever, no matter whether his murderers are alive or dead..there will be no 'closure' to this for them...but they wanted to be shot down by the police, they wanted a quick death and not to face what they did..why should they have what they wanted...they don't deserve that, too many people who do terrible things, don't live to face their crimes..if it was a loved one of mine, I would not want him dead at all, I would not feel they deserved that and that would be something else that would haunt my life...

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..nothing is going to change the fact that Lee is dead or the horrific way he was killed for his family or take away that pain...those are nightmares that they will live with forever, no matter whether his murderers are alive or dead..there will be no 'closure' to this for them...but they wanted to be shot down by the police, they wanted a quick death and not to face what they did..why should they have what they wanted...they don't deserve that, too many people who do terrible things, don't live to face their crimes..if it was a loved one of mine, I would not want him dead at all, I would not feel they deserved that and that would be something else that would haunt my life...

how do you know what will bring closure for lee's family?, you dont.
what you want and others want is very different.

you should go and ask the victims familes of rapists and murderers that have been thru the prison sytem only to murderand rape again, what their view is.

[AnnieK]

The family of lee will never have closure....I don't know them but I will guarantee nothing will ever take away how he died for them....nothing. I don't need to know them to know that. An act of retribution may make them feel something but it won't be closure, lee will still have faced that atrocity....

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes and their god told them they are at War in the UK.


Eye for a Eye
the Evil Punk stated at the time they killed Lee.

and later
"by the Power of Allah"


Ch4News now

The war is in their own bitter, twisted minds. Vile savages who hopefully die the way they lived. Most of all they were cowards who knew at worst, in Britain, they would go to jail - no fear of them facing the same primitive brand of revenge they like to dish out to others.

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

i think you using jesus as your user name as gone to your head!, eye for an eye making the whole world blind is such an unrealistic frame of mind, in the world we live in today.

if you set out to take another life you should lose the right to keep yours.

i dont want these men tortured but a quick end to their lifes would not go against my mind set.

Being against murder, doesn't make me a hippy. The world we live in today is considerably less violent than the world that existed in biblical times.

I just don't understand (and I hopefully never will) how a civilised society can say the punishment for murdering someone should be murder.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

how do you know what will bring closure for lee's family?, you dont.
what you want and others want is very different.

you should go and ask the victims familes of rapists and murderers that have been thru the prison sytem only to murderand rape again, what their view is.

..no, I could never know how they feel, I can't imagine it and would never want to...no one who hasn't been where they are right now could...so I, like anyone else can just go with what we feel and which is also based on our own personal experiences as well and I have had a close member of my family who was the victim of a violent crime..that's something that we all live with and will continue to because emotional scars don't heal so quickly as any physical ones do...but what I do know is that I could never wish on the mother of the person who did it, the same thing to have to live with ...and it would only make me feel worse to know that someone else felt the same emotional pain..I know that with complete certainty....so I would never, ever wish death or physical harm on anyone....and it would also make me no better than they are...

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by The Baby Jesus

I think we'll all be pretty safe if they're locked up in prison, so anything extra to that is purely for revenge, and not punishment.

It's not utter nonsense at all, and if you claim it is, then you need to expand on your reasons for it. We have laws in place to deal with criminals, that don't include murder.

The last point doesn't make any sense to me, because it treats the starting point and conclusion as the same, regardless of what happens in the middle. We know better now, and our morality has demonstrably evolved.

Isn't the problem that the morality of some has not evolved - it is as primiative as biblical times. Such cretins hide behind banners such as Allah to attempt to make heroes of themselves, because they are far from it, the only way they will ever make their names known in the big wide world. Two sad losers who only actually succeeded in making a martyr of someone who represented something they claim to hate so much. The only hero here was Lee Rigby who unfortunately paid the price for their inadequacies.

[Kizzy]

It was the shock factor associated, that shook the UK it wasn't personal though it was symbolic.
Not that that has been addressed,or that our govt who trawl inner city high schools signing 16yr olds to the army, then send them afghanistan to die at the first opportunity will care.

[Livia]

The government does not "trawl inner city schools" for recruits. I happen to know that it's very hard for the Army Careers people to get into schools because the people who run the schools tend to be left wing militants. You have to have good exam grades to join the army, not anyone can join, it's common misconception by people who know nothing about the modern British army.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

i think you using jesus as your user name as gone to your head!, eye for an eye making the whole world blind is such an unrealistic frame of mind, in the world we live in today.

if you set out to take another life you should lose the right to keep yours.

i dont want these men tortured but a quick end to their lifes would not go against my mind set.

The whole world knows them for what they are - cowards and savages. One hell of a thing to be famous for. I don't see why taxpayers should pay for them to be fed and watered for years to come - sometimes the word 'civilized' leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I hope karma gets the creeps.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

The government does not "trawl inner city schools" for recruits. I happen to know that it's very hard for the Army Careers people to get into schools because the people who run the schools tend to be left wing militants. You have to have good exam grades to join the army, not anyone can join, it's common misconception by people who know nothing about the modern British army.

..just a by the by with that Liv..one of my son's friends always wanted to be in the army, that was always his dream which he was totally focused on...anyway, he's a very clever/gifted and academic young man and he did go off/do his training etc...but they wanted him as an officer and that wasn't what he wanted at all, he wanted active duty...so he left because being an officer wasn't what he'd wanted at all...

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Livia

The government does not "trawl inner city schools" for recruits. I happen to know that it's very hard for the Army Careers people to get into schools because the people who run the schools tend to be left wing militants. You have to have good exam grades to join the army, not anyone can join, it's common misconception by people who know nothing about the modern British army.

It is hardly a bad thing that it is difficult for the Army to get into schools to influence vulnerable young minds. Yes those that get into the forces do need to prove their academic abilities, we don't want a bunch of idiots who can barely construct a sentence protecting our country - but only adults should be expected to make the decision to pursue a career that could cost them their lives.

Originally Posted by sassysocks

The whole world knows them for what they are - cowards and savages. One hell of a thing to be famous for. I don't see why taxpayers should pay for them to be fed and watered for years to come - sometimes the word 'civilized' leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I hope karma gets the creeps.

When you reduce people down like this it makes it easier to avoid thinking.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by sassysocks

It is hardly a bad thing that it is difficult for the Army to get into schools to influence vulnerable young minds. Yes those that get into the forces do need to prove their academic abilities, we don't want a bunch of idiots who can barely construct a sentence protecting our country - but only adults should be expected to make the decision to pursue a career that could cost them their lives.

You talk about influencing young minds like the army go in with a press gang.

So on one hand we're saying that 16 year olds aren't responsible enough to make a career decision to join that army... and on the other hand there are discussions going on to give them the vote?

You can't join up to the army until you're 18 years old and legally considered an adult. You can join at 16 as an apprentice only. But hey, let's not let the army into schools and let the kids have all the facts, or anything. Let's leave that to the teachers so they can give them a really one-sided view of things.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

The government does not "trawl inner city schools" for recruits. I happen to know that it's very hard for the Army Careers people to get into schools because the people who run the schools tend to be left wing militants. You have to have good exam grades to join the army, not anyone can join, it's common misconception by people who know nothing about the modern British army.

'left wing militants' is that the name given to those who disagree with signing 16yr olds to the army?... Quite a lot of those across europe then seeing as we are the only country to do this.
I know plenty about the modern British army thanks.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by The Baby Jesus

When you reduce people down like this it makes it easier to avoid thinking.

Where does over-thinking get us? A civilized country where un-civilized cowards can come and brutally murder our brave young men, and then be given food, water and shelter for the rest of their miserable, worthless lives.

[Redway]

I hope the bastards rot in hell.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by Snow Angel

'left wing militants' is that the name given to those who disagree with signing 16yr olds to the army?... Quite a lot of those across europe then seeing as we are the only country to do this.
I know plenty about the modern British army thanks.

It would be worrying if all our teachers were actually left wing or right wing militants. I like to think most are neither.

Originally Posted by sassysocks

Where does over-thinking get us? A civilized country where un-civilized cowards can come and brutally murder our brave young men, and then be given food, water and shelter for the rest of their miserable lives.

Yeah - you're right. Just out of interest, how many terrorist attacks like this happen every year?

When one side believes they have the power of the almighty on their side, then meeting them force to force isn't going to do anything, but deprogramming can and does happen regularly.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by The Baby Jesus

Yeah - you're right. Just out of interest, how many terrorist attacks like this happen every year?

When one side believes they have the power of the almighty on their side, then meeting them force to force isn't going to do anything, but deprogramming can and does happen regularly.

Anyone capable of such depraved brutality on a defenceless man is way beyond being deprogrammed. A padded-cell or six feet under would be more appropriate.

Originally Posted by sassysocks

Anyone capable of such depraved brutality on a defenceless man is way beyond being deprogrammed. A padded-cell or six feet under would be more appropriate.

I'm not arguing against a padded cell, I'm arguing against 6ft under.

[sassysocks]

Originally Posted by The Baby Jesus

I'm not arguing against a padded cell, I'm arguing against 6ft under.

Maybe taxpayers should get a say in whether their taxes are used to support such people - and the standard of their 'care' should depend solely on those who are happy to opt-in - bang goes the colour tv and sports facilties for a start.

Originally Posted by sassysocks

Maybe taxpayers should get a say in whether their taxes are used to support such people - and the standard of their 'care' should depend solely on those who are happy to opt-in - bang goes the colour tv and sports facilties for a start.

I am a tax payer.