[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

It said a long the lines of they fear they won't achieve martyrdom and go on to live in paradise, because they've ended up fighting rebels, and this isn't their cause.

I hope Cameron doesn't allow them back in on the sense that they need to be tried in court, i read there's about 30 of them wanting to come back.

I do not believe that the British public realise how anti-British, anti-American, and anti- Western some of the 'ordinary' British born, young Muslim males are, even some of the non-practising ones.

A few years ago, I had befriended a group of young British Asians via mutual business, and all appeared normal citizens. Then, at the time of the 911 atrocities, we were having after seminar drinks in a hotel - there were about 25 present - and the news broke on TV. Virtually all the room erupted into loud cheering when the jets flying into the twin towers was being screened. Some were shouting out that The Houses of Parliament should be next! Only myself and an Indian man (Sikh) who was about 40 years old were shocked by the footage and disgusted by the others reaction. I told my closest 'friend' - who was one of the loudest voices cheering and jeering - that I was dumbfounded by his (and the other's) reactions, and asked him how he could be that insensitive and so anti-British when he was born and bred here? He replied that he "wasn't British" and that "we" (the British) and them (the Americans) had it coming for what atrocities we had carried out on Muslims.

I did not recognise the hate-filled man in front of me and I ended up arguing with him and several of the others before the Sikh guy and I left. I am no longer in business or contact with any of these men.

Before anyone takes me to task and tells me that not all British-born young Muslims are like that - I know. I also know that not all non British-born older Muslims are like that, because I have met the guy I am referring to's father who is some kind of Mullah in the local Pakistani community, and I have never met a more genteel, sensitive, and peace-loving man who condemns the violence on both sides and is fiercely proud to be British.

[Kizzy]

There may be a loss of cultural identity that is to blame for those raised here,
3rd or 4th generation British Muslims feeling a pull to what they consider a native homeland.
There was an episode of 'chicken shop' where loyalty was being discussed by a group of young Muslim men, they were also leaning towards the possibility that if it came down to the two they may not fight on the British side.
It's hard to say how or why they feel so disaffected there's possibly many contributory factors, I don't think for one minute though that some leave to fight one cause and it's an unhappy accident they end up fighting against the west.

[jaxie]

I can sympathise that there may be some people who bite off more than they can chew when they go into these situations but to allow them to come home puts everyone else at risk because we can't be sure they are genuine and won't bring the violence to our streets.

I grew up near Woolwich and I am still absolutely gutted by the bloody slaughter of that young soldier, men walking around on tv with his blood on their hands where his poor mother and wife could see. No thanks, you made your choice, we don't want you back here. We've enough trouble managing the deluded idiots we still have.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's it... It's the evil people manipulating the suggestible into these evil acts.
If there really is 72 virgins waiting for these suicide bombers why aren't the teachers of this extremism grabbing them for themselves?..

Not quite sure what is so great about these virgins anyway. Are they perpetual virgins or do they lose it same as everyone else. Are they ugly virgins, or pretty virgins or a mix? Do they have some special virginal talent? I was a virgin when I met my husband. I'm not sure he thought it was paradise the first time but we got better at sex over time as we learned about each other.

Every time I see this mentioned as something wonderful these men aspire to it seems more and more ridiculous. Does anyone really believe that?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Not quite sure what is so great about these virgins anyway. Are they perpetual virgins or do they lose it same as everyone else. Are they ugly virgins, or pretty virgins or a mix? Do they have some special virginal talent? I was a virgin when I met my husband. I'm not sure he thought it was paradise the first time but we got better at sex over time as we learned about each other.

Every time I see this mentioned as something wonderful these men aspire to it seems more and more ridiculous. Does anyone really believe that?

I think you're taking the analogy a little too literally ...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I did read an article recently which brought up something I hadn't really thought of, about how IS glamourise their cause and their lifestyle to persuade those easily led into fighting for them, I can imagine that some who end up fighting find the reality completely different to how they'd thought it would be and if you come from a country like the UK it must be pretty messed up to be thrown into a war zone where beheadings, mass executions etc. are the daily norm. Some probably do end up disillusioned and traumatised.

That said they made their choice and should have to live with it, I don't think they can ever be forgiven and should never be allowed back.

Excellent post, I agree,nothing to add to it.
It says it all for me too.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think you're taking the analogy a little too literally ...

Maybe I should have said haha?

[Mystic Mock]

Oh they want to come home now that they've lost their luxuries and are about to be in trouble? Well leave them over there I say, no civilized nation should want these to be back in their country after all the trouble that they've caused, and the further damage that they've wanted to cause with this ISIS group.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Maybe I should have said haha?

Nay worries I get you now jaxie, maybe I should have too

It's hard when it's such a sensitive topic to show your not being 100% serious without coming across as joking about the subject.

[anne666]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I can sympathise that there may be some people who bite off more than they can chew when they go into these situations but to allow them to come home puts everyone else at risk because we can't be sure they are genuine and won't bring the violence to our streets.

I grew up near Woolwich and I am still absolutely gutted by the bloody slaughter of that young soldier, men walking around on tv with his blood on their hands where his poor mother and wife could see. No thanks, you made your choice, we don't want you back here. We've enough trouble managing the deluded idiots we still have.

At the moment there is very little we can do to prevent British ISIS fighters returning to Britain. Unless they can establish citizenship of another country we have to take them back.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I have always loved your posts Livia and been in 99% agreement, but here I believe you are wrong. I believe even with the most comprehensive of debriefings and the most rigorous of constraints, their re-admittance would be as useful to us as the Wooden Horse was to the Trojans.

I also do not buy their plea to be allowed home or their reasons, because if they were genuine, they would have been too scared to voice them, would have been prevented from doing so, and most certainly put to death.

Thanks Kirk... I like your posts too. Some of the people on here I enjoy talking to the most are those I agree with the least.

The war in Iraq is a very different animal to the war in Syria. I can, to a certain extent, understand young Muslims going to fight in Syria, thinking with their heart instead of their head... then getting dragged into the ****ing mayhem that Iraq has turned into.

If our security services believe that they can handle the repatriation of these young men, I believe we should trust their judgment in this. We cannot take away their citizenship, it's against international law... so we use them to our advantage. They will never be trusted 100%, but you know what they say about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

[lostalex]

sorry, but once you go off to summer camp, you can't come home til it's over kiddies.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by anne666

At the moment there is very little we can do to prevent British ISIS fighters returning to Britain. Unless they can establish citizenship of another country we have to take them back.

Thats seriously ****ed up tbh...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Thats seriously ****ed up tbh...

Only joins the long list of other incredible legislation this country has to adhere to, and the even longer list of 'home-grown' policies which are insane.

How about the department which has paid millions out to 'would-be' asylum seekers by way of Ł10,000 'bribes' not to come here? A government spokesman for the department responsible - cornered because of a 'whistle-blower' - squirmed when being questioned by Trevor McDonald's 'Tonight' team, and admitted that 'some' had taken the Ł10K but still come here. When pressed, he further admitted that there were cases where still others had taken the Ł10K but still come here, then 'gone back' and received a further Ł10k, then still came back here. He finally admitted that there was nothing to stop them playing 'yo-yo' and receiving multiple Ł10K's!!!!!

Personally, I think they should hang every Government Minister we've had since 1945 for Treason (those who have passed on are excused) because they have successively betrayed the people of this country and are continuing to do so.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Thanks Kirk... I like your posts too. Some of the people on here I enjoy talking to the most are those I agree with the least.

The war in Iraq is a very different animal to the war in Syria. I can, to a certain extent, understand young Muslims going to fight in Syria, thinking with their heart instead of their head... then getting dragged into the ****ing mayhem that Iraq has turned into.

If our security services believe that they can handle the repatriation of these young men, I believe we should trust their judgment in this. We cannot take away their citizenship, it's against international law... so we use them to our advantage. They will never be trusted 100%, but you know what they say about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer.

Valid point. My problem is that - historically - 'our security forces' have proved wholly inept, so could they 'handle' their repatriation? Or will these 'prodigals' - like so many thousands of others before them - simply abscond and disappear once here?

[parmnion]

get them back we need all the assistance we can get in this fight..answers is all they will be worth.

[rubymoo]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I do not believe that the British public realise how anti-British, anti-American, and anti- Western some of the 'ordinary' British born, young Muslim males are, even some of the non-practising ones.

A few years ago, I had befriended a group of young British Asians via mutual business, and all appeared normal citizens. Then, at the time of the 911 atrocities, we were having after seminar drinks in a hotel - there were about 25 present - and the news broke on TV. Virtually all the room erupted into loud cheering when the jets flying into the twin towers was being screened. Some were shouting out that The Houses of Parliament should be next! Only myself and an Indian man (Sikh) who was about 40 years old were shocked by the footage and disgusted by the others reaction. I told my closest 'friend' - who was one of the loudest voices cheering and jeering - that I was dumbfounded by his (and the other's) reactions, and asked him how he could be that insensitive and so anti-British when he was born and bred here? He replied that he "wasn't British" and that "we" (the British) and them (the Americans) had it coming for what atrocities we had carried out on Muslims.

I did not recognise the hate-filled man in front of me and I ended up arguing with him and several of the others before the Sikh guy and I left. I am no longer in business or contact with any of these men.

Before anyone takes me to task and tells me that not all British-born young Muslims are like that - I know. I also know that not all non British-born older Muslims are like that, because I have met the guy I am referring to's father who is some kind of Mullah in the local Pakistani community, and I have never met a more genteel, sensitive, and peace-loving man who condemns the violence on both sides and is fiercely proud to be British.

This is a really good post and actually shocked me as to the reactions of these business collegues, to know that we live in a place where British born Muslims (not all of them) hold these views.

I don't understand why they hate us and the Americans so much and why they are actually fighting, what exactly are they fighting for, i mean if you strip it right back and take away the tit for tat what exactly is it all about?

I believe we should now be a country of values, morals and beliefs and as we are asked to respect other countries and their beliefs, we should also get that same respect back, if people wish to settle in this country then they should pledge allegiance and accept our lifestyle and be glad they have settled in a place that is a step up from their country, if they hate us.....they should then go home and leave us alone!

Surely what these radicalists have commited is treason.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Valid point. My problem is that - historically - 'our security forces' have proved wholly inept, so could they 'handle' their repatriation? Or will these 'prodigals' - like so many thousands of others before them - simply abscond and disappear once here?

How have our security services proved wholly inept? You have no idea the number of times those people save this country during the course of a year. I'm not talking about the Immigration Service.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by lostalex

sorry, but once you go off to summer camp, you can't come home til it's over kiddies.

They went off to a summer camp then were led off to a completely different camp with a whole different group of people and none of the activities they signed up for.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

How have our security services proved wholly inept? You have no idea the number of times those people save this country during the course of a year. I'm not talking about the Immigration Service.

Sorry - I should have said; Intelligence Services not Security, and I am talking historically. I'm just glad - in these insane times - that we have a Security Service and wish they'd increase their budget a hundredfold.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

How have our security services proved wholly inept? You have no idea the number of times those people save this country during the course of a year. I'm not talking about the Immigration Service.

You have me intrigued - do you work in this field? Don't answer if it compromises you.

[Vanessa]

No, sorry. They could be a danger to this country.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Vanessa

No, sorry. They could be a danger to this country.

Bang On Right
Vanessa




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