[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anything was meant by it at all but I do think it's illustrative of something that's really quite evident, and I don't think there's much point in avoiding: people are shocked be a use he's young and white, not because he's young. People struggle to get their heads around it because he looks like the boy next door, and therefore can't be dismissed as some "foreign devil, not like us". Which has been a bug theme for me in these threads recently... People having a constant struggle with cognitive dissonance relating to war / terrorism.

People are surprised because he's young, he's white and he's joined up with ISIL. Which is an Islamic organisation in the Middle East. There aren't many white people fighting with ISIL. That's why people are surprised.

IRA terrorists were predominantly white, Baader Meinhof terrorists were predominantly white... ISIL are predominantly Arab/Middle Eastern or whichever cultural pigeonhole you'd like to place them... but whichever way you twist it there aren't many white kids. So really, no one's struggling to get their heads around anything, they're right to be surprised. Doesn't mean people struggle with cognitive dissonance or anything else.

[GypsyGoth]

@Toy Soldier

Both Ammi & Livia have articulated it better than I could have.

There is no cognitive dissonance going on inside my head when it comes to this. I fully accept that someone can be born a citizen of one country and follow this extremist muslim doctrine.

I find it more worrying that you aren't shocked by it. If the photo is true, then it shows this evilness is spreading.

[JoshBB]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ter-user-claim

This story was an internet troll by the guy. UCAS deadline isn't even until 15th January, lol. Way to go daily mail.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by JollyBB

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ter-user-claim

This story was an internet troll by the guy. UCAS deadline isn't even until 15th January, lol. Way to go daily mail.

LOL!So i assume the kid did'nt give permission for his face to be used?

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by JollyBB

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ter-user-claim

This story was an internet troll by the guy. UCAS deadline isn't even until 15th January, lol. Way to go daily mail.

Or is that just what he WANTS us to think....

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by JollyBB

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ter-user-claim

This story was an internet troll by the guy. UCAS deadline isn't even until 15th January, lol. Way to go daily mail.

Oh, what a hilarious prank

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think anything was meant by it at all but I do think it's illustrative of something that's really quite evident, and I don't think there's much point in avoiding: people are shocked because he's young and white, not because he's young. People struggle to get their heads around it because he looks like the boy next door, and therefore can't be dismissed as some "foreign devil, not like us". Which has been a big theme for me in these threads recently... People having a constant struggle with cognitive dissonance relating to war / terrorism.

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

@Toy Soldier

Both Ammi & Livia have articulated it better than I could have.

There is no cognitive dissonance going on inside my head when it comes to this. I fully accept that someone can be born a citizen of one country and follow this extremist muslim doctrine.

I find it more worrying that you aren't shocked by it. If the photo is true, then it shows this evilness is spreading.

Well said Goth -- Just be careful about using words like 'Evil' to describe these terrorist scum, because T.S will be accusing you of 'mysticism' or worse.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

Exactly Ammi. It is the ability not to be shocked by extremism and the inability to condemn that extremism which I find shocking.

[GypsyGoth]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Well said Goth -- Just be careful about using words like 'Evil' to describe these terrorist scum, because T.S will be accusing you of 'mysticism' or worse.

Thanks Kirk

But I think evil is one of the few apt words to describe this group. I really feel that anyone who defends them, just doesn't know what they do and doesn't understand what they are capable.

A person can be anti-american, or against their policies in the world, or against the west or whatever, but that doesn't mean they should harbor some support for ISIL.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..honestly TS, I just don't get it/don't see it as you do at all...for young people, any of the three young men in that pic to be so easily indoctrinated into 'hate' and into a total lack of any empathy for human life is extremely shocking, how could the belief of such extremism not shock...

Well, I agree that it's shocking in that there are people out there who, at some point down the line, want to covert young people to such cold hatred (the "head of the snake" so to speak), although as a psychologist I certainly don't find it shocking that such is possible, because the human mind is fragile and easily twisted and nor do I find their youth shocking because young minds are even more fragile. The older you get, the more rigid your thought processes become, and the harder you become to indoctrinate. Very young children are exceptionally easy to "mould", which is the basic premise of all hereditary religion. Teenagers and young adults are often still ideologically confused and the right pushing in the right places can completely warp them philosophically and morally.

Like I said, it is horrific and it is shocking that there are people who want to. Despite Kirk's inference (and after, with hypocrisy, suggesting that I have misquoted HIM), I am horrified by terrorism and absolutely condemn it. I don't think these warped young minds can be fixed, or at the very least I think it would be dangerous and realistically not possible to even try on such a scale, and perhaps I can conceded that they are "monsters" insofar as monsters can be created by people with selfish agendas.

Tl;Dr - does it shock me that there are people who set out to create monsters? Yes. Does it shock me that young people can readily be twisted into those monsters? Absolutely not.



ANYWAY - my argument remains. I personally find it equally shocking no matter the skin colour of the young person, but it's evident that most people don't. Not even necessarily on this thread / forum (although as I said, recent threads with assertions of genetic barbarism...) but in general, isn't it evident? Isn't it evident with this story (hoax or not) being major news at all? Does every young "brown" British IS convert spark news stories, debate threads and daily mail hysteria? No. Because people expect that. They can accept that. They can squirrel it away in their mind along with all of the other "foreign folks terrorism stuff in dusty places", say how awful it is, and largely not think about it too much. Some might suggest it as a reason that "these people shouldn't be in our country in the first place!!", etc. That becomes more difficult when the convert being paraded is "little Johnny Edwards from just down th'Road he were always a quiet chap". It destroys that comfort zone and increases the "OMG factor" tenfold for MANY people. There's a reason for that, and in my opinion, it's the same reason that a lot of people find themselves insistent that most if not all extremists are in some way "born wrong", inherently "not normal folks" psychologically, by their very nature. It's because they simply don't want to believe that, but for certain historical twists of fate, these monsters could be their children / nieces / nephews or the teenage boys they see skating past the window every day.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well, I agree that it's shocking in that there are people out there who, at some point down the line, want to covert young people to such cold hatred (the "head of the snake" so to speak), although as a psychologist I certainly don't find it shocking that such is possible, because the human mind is fragile and easily twisted and nor do I find their youth shocking because young minds are even more fragile. The older you get, the more rigid your thought processes become, and the harder you become to indoctrinate. Very young children are exceptionally easy to "mould", which is the basic premise of all hereditary religion. Teenagers and young adults are often still ideologically confused and the right pushing in the right places can completely warp them philosophically and morally.

Like I said, it is horrific and it is shocking that there are people who want to. Despite Kirk's inference (and after, with hypocrisy, suggesting that I have misquoted HIM), I am horrified by terrorism and absolutely condemn it. I don't think these warped young minds can be fixed, or at the very least I think it would be dangerous and realistically not possible to even try on such a scale, and perhaps I can conceded that they are "monsters" insofar as monsters can be created by people with selfish agendas.

Tl;Dr - does it shock me that there are people who set out to create monsters? Yes. Does it shock me that young people can readily be twisted into those monsters? Absolutely not.



ANYWAY - my argument remains. I personally find it equally shocking no matter the skin colour of the young person, but it's evident that most people don't. Not even necessarily on this thread / forum (although as I said, recent threads with assertions of genetic barbarism...) but in general, isn't it evident? Isn't it evident with this story (hoax or not) being major news at all? Does every young "brown" British IS convert spark news stories, debate threads and daily mail hysteria? No. Because people expect that. They can accept that. They can squirrel it away in their mind along with all of the other "foreign folks terrorism stuff in dusty places", say how awful it is, and largely not think about it too much. Some might suggest it as a reason that "these people shouldn't be in our country in the first place!!", etc. That becomes more difficult when the convert being paraded is "little Johnny Edwards from just down th'Road he were always a quiet chap". It destroys that comfort zone and increases the "OMG factor" tenfold for MANY people. There's a reason for that, and in my opinion, it's the same reason that a lot of people find themselves insistent that most if not all extremists are in some way "born wrong", inherently "not normal folks" psychologically, by their very nature. It's because they simply don't want to believe that, but for certain historical twists of fate, these monsters could be their children / nieces / nephews or the teenage boys they see skating past the window every day.

..apologies that I only have time atm to skim read your post so I will come back to it and read it through properly a bit later...


..anyway, just for now...I don't know if you've read about the young Syrian boy who 'escaped' ISIS..?...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-blow-up.html


..the methods obviously used to 'create evil' is largely fear...fear for their families and themselves, that if they don't themselves be part of the atrocities/part of the murders/part of the tortures/do what is asked of them.. then they themselves as well as their families will become victims..will become the ones who are tortured and killed...their mothers and sisters raped etc..?...so with the 'white jihadi'..?...there was no such fear instilled, there were not the same methods of brainwashing used/there was not that 'indoctrination' that the young Syrian boy tells of..(we presume, although I think it's all actually fake..)..but that was what the story led us to presume...that there was no threat to him/his family...he lived in no fear in his life....so would that not naturally provoke a greater shock..that he would be part of these inhuman acts?..that has nothing to do with his appearance at all.....

[Ammi]

..what I'm trying to say TS..(and probably really badly..)..is that you cannot compare a situation of....'we have your family hostage/we will torture, rape and kill them unless you kill/torture for us...'..we can all at least understand how that psychology works..?...as opposed to someone who would torture and kill without any of those threats to them being real, who would voluntarily be part of what ISIS do because they have no 'cause' other than hate ...surely that is more shocking....because it's so much harder to understand....

[Northern Monkey]

Idk.I think maybe it's seen as more shocking because he was probably not brought up as a Muslim(as white British kids usually are'nt).When a kid of Pakistan/Arab herritage and a Muslim background turns toward groups such as ISIS,They're already part way there.These terrorist ideolgies are'nt as much of a leap since the basis for what they believe has its foundations in Islam.For a non religious or a Christian or Jewish or whatever white kid to be converted not only to Islam but this extreme version of Islam just lets us know that these terrorists can get to any of our kids.(Even though the story turned out fake anyway).Simple fact is.This is a Muslim based ideology and it is usually Muslims(who just happen to not be white) that turn to this.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..apologies that I only have time atm to skim read your post so I will come back to it and read it through properly a bit later...


..anyway, just for now...I don't know if you've read about the young Syrian boy who 'escaped' ISIS..?...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-blow-up.html


..the methods obviously used to 'create evil' is largely fear...fear for their families and themselves, that if they don't themselves be part of the atrocities/part of the murders/part of the tortures/do what is asked of them.. then they themselves as well as their families will become victims..will become the ones who are tortured and killed...their mothers and sisters raped etc..?...so with the 'white jihadi'..?...there was no such fear instilled, there were not the same methods of brainwashing used/there was not that 'indoctrination' that the young Syrian boy tells of..(we presume, although I think it's all actually fake..)..but that was what the story led us to presume...that there was no threat to him/his family...he lived in no fear in his life....so would that not naturally provoke a greater shock..that he would be part of these inhuman acts?..that has nothing to do with his appearance at all.....

Fear is a huge part of all indoctrination including most religions (fear of death, fear of hell, fear of oblivion, general fear of the unknown) and I don't doubt that there are many and varied methods used in the initial recruitment process. Some will be afraid, some taken by force, others seeking glory or hungry for power, some genuinely devout and following warped teachings, others simply lost and seeking direction, and taken under the Wings of the wrong people. The last of those I think would apply to Mr Edwards, were he real. Regardless, I think early on in the process many (if not most) of these kids probably find themselves in over their heads... A large part of the "monster creation" process being the gradual desensitisation to violence and atrocities that would come from witnessing such atrocities repeatedly. Perhaps, the boy in the linked article was simply "utilised" prematurely.

Anyway, it's not simply country of origin we're talking about here. People aren't surprised by British-born kids of middle eastern origin leaving to join IS. Well, it gets a mention, but hardly the media attention that something like this does... And why would they be fearful of the things mentioned any more than the white boy? And yet, people are not shocked in the same way...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Fear is a huge part of all indoctrination including most religions (fear of death, fear of hell, fear of oblivion, general fear of the unknown) and I don't doubt that there are many and varied methods used in the initial recruitment process. Some will be afraid, some taken by force, others seeking glory or hungry for power, some genuinely devout and following warped teachings, others simply lost and seeking direction, and taken under the Wings of the wrong people. The last of those I think would apply to Mr Edwards, were he real. Regardless, I think early on in the process many (if not most) of these kids probably find themselves in over their heads... A large part of the "monster creation" process being the gradual desensitisation to violence and atrocities that would come from witnessing such atrocities repeatedly. Perhaps, the boy in the linked article was simply "utilised" prematurely.

Anyway, it's not simply country of origin we're talking about here. People aren't surprised by British-born kids of middle eastern origin leaving to join IS. Well, it gets a mention, but hardly the media attention that something like this does... And why would they be fearful of the things mentioned any more than the white boy? And yet, people are not shocked in the same way...

..I really can't agree with you on this, TS...the metaphorical 'skateboarding' comment which was originally used would have equally applied to a 'white' or a 'brown' skin because it's attached to his youth and also that he was far from being 'desensitised' to violent atrocities in his environment...so it is much less easy to understand...but there was no less shock applied when it was revealed that 'Jihadi John' was a UK National so would also not have had the same fears etc/the same desensitisations ..or any indoctrinations etc...can you not see that..?...if there appears to you that there is a greater 'shock' here, I think that is only because we are allowed to look at his face whereas with Jihadi John, we were not....