[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

can't believe this wretched thread is still going

It is akin to arguing which is more relevant - The Honey Monster or the Loch Ness Monster...

In the scheme of things:-

Everyday reality, that you can touch,taste,smell,see & hear
recently proved Scientific Theories
current Scientific Theories
Ufology
Mythology
Religion
.

I love ya Nedusa and always respect your views, but I must disagree with you here. There is a wealth of evidence to substantiate Christianity but no Christian on here dare create a thread in which to air it and explore it, because instead of sensible and civilised adult debate, all it will lead to is the usual inane ridiculing, the same ignoring of facts, and the usual violent arguments.

A shame, but not worth it.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I love ya Nedusa and always respect your views, but I must disagree with you here. There is a wealth of evidence to substantiate Christianity but no Christian on here dare create a thread in which to air it and explore it, because instead of sensible and civilised adult debate, all it will lead to is the usual inane ridiculing, the same ignoring of facts, and the usual violent arguments.

A shame, but not worth it.

I know Kirk...........I'm only messing

trying to brighten up a dull rainy day here in London.




.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I know Kirk...........I'm only messing

trying to brighten up a dull rainy day here in London.



.

I really wondered at that coming from you Nedusa. Accept my apology.

It's snowing a blizzard here - really extreme and shagged my exterior work up.

Fancy nipping off with me on a cyber dinner date?

[farhad]

Quran makes a archaeological historical statement on astrial diety in connection to Sumerian religion Sin in Abraham's time which was a moon god named nanna, nanna's son was the god of the sun, and the sibling Ishtar was the gddess of venus when lit into evening star. These are not mentioned in the bible, it just says they worshipped some statues but never declares which god they worshipped. This however is mentioned in quran in todays discovery we call it the astral diety sin.

And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]

So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said, “I like not those that disappear.”

And when he saw the moon rising, he said, “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said, “Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray.”

And when he saw the sun rising, he said, “This is my lord; this is greater.” But when it set, he said, “O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.

Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah.” [Chapter 6, verses 75-79]
These historical claims that have been mentioned in the Qur’an about the deities worshipped by Prophet Abraham’s people – the astral triad of the Sun, Moon and Venus – were unknown at the time of Qur’anic Revelation in the 7th century. Knowledge of Sumerian religion (especially the birthplace of Abraham, the city of Ur) had been lost for thousands of years until their rediscovery and excavation in the 20th century. The only realistic source of knowledge about Prophet Abraham available to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both, would have been the Bible based stories in circulation. As we have seen however, the story of Prophet Abraham in the Bible is silent on the details of the religious beliefs of his people. Blindly guessing this information is out of the question given the sheer number of gods and goddesses that were worshipped throughout the region, with deities numbering in their thousands. From where, then, did Prophet Muhammad obtain his information? The Qur’an answers:

“

[arista]

"the heavens"

No Such Place Farhad
when you Die
its blank

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

thats upsetting arista

will you hold me

[arista]

Originally Posted by Rose McGowan

thats upsetting arista

will you hold me

Sure


But Farhad is stuck in fables
and youtube failed Profs.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

[Kizzy]

It can't have been lost as Solomon mentions the philistines and their god dagon in Judges.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by farhad

Quran makes a archaeological historical statement on astrial diety in connection to Sumerian religion Sin in Abraham's time which was a moon god named nanna, nanna's son was the god of the sun, and the sibling Ishtar was the gddess of venus when lit into evening star. These are not mentioned in the bible, it just says they worshipped some statues but never declares which god they worshipped. This however is mentioned in quran in todays discovery we call it the astral diety sin.

And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]

So when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star. He said, “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said, “I like not those that disappear.”

And when he saw the moon rising, he said, “This is my lord.” But when it set, he said, “Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray.”

And when he saw the sun rising, he said, “This is my lord; this is greater.” But when it set, he said, “O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah.

Indeed, I have turned my face toward He who created the heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and I am not of those who associate others with Allah.” [Chapter 6, verses 75-79]
These historical claims that have been mentioned in the Qur’an about the deities worshipped by Prophet Abraham’s people – the astral triad of the Sun, Moon and Venus – were unknown at the time of Qur’anic Revelation in the 7th century. Knowledge of Sumerian religion (especially the birthplace of Abraham, the city of Ur) had been lost for thousands of years until their rediscovery and excavation in the 20th century. The only realistic source of knowledge about Prophet Abraham available to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both, would have been the Bible based stories in circulation. As we have seen however, the story of Prophet Abraham in the Bible is silent on the details of the religious beliefs of his people. Blindly guessing this information is out of the question given the sheer number of gods and goddesses that were worshipped throughout the region, with deities numbering in their thousands. From where, then, did Prophet Muhammad obtain his information? The Qur’an answers:

“

It is now apparent that you are not here to debate or discuss Farhad - You are here to preach.

You ignore our responses to your posts or respond to them with yet more preaching without addressing or answering the points raised in our responses.

I'm sorry about this Farhad, because I personally have many problems with your religion - not least the fact that it is riddled with contradictions and historical inaccuracies which cause massive interpretive difficulties for anyone objectively analysing it, and I was hoping that through debate and discussion, that you could enlighten me.

I think that I will continue to post my questions in the hope that you will try to convert me with your answers.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by farhad

Even for the sake of the argument you want vilify from todays standard, then how do we know she was 6, arabs and many did not keep their birth certificate and generally did not know their birthdate.

LOL I just noticed this post. "honest, officer, I didn't know she was 6, she said she was 25! I just thought she was really short."

[farhad]

The astral triniad was lost history of Sumerians, quran addressed before excavation that it was god of moon, sun and star of Venus, formed the trinity something missing from other source.

I'll get back to other responses as due to work could not read all post

[InOne]

Farhad you're just churning out typical responses that we've heard hundreds of times. It's most likely you're googling your replies and getting them off Islamic sites.

'How to reply to a Kafir if he/she starts talking sense'

[farhad]

InOne, if you don't believe me read the encyclodpedia Britannica.

Sin, (Akkadian), Sumerian Nanna, in Mesopotamian religion, the god of the moon. Sin was the father of the sun god, Shamash (Sumerian: Utu), and, in some myths, of Ishtar (Sumerian: Inanna), goddess of Venu (Aso referred to star of venus)s, and with them formed an astral triad of deities. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/545523/Sin

Quran mentioned the 3 trinity of their diety, moon, sun and venus or star. It's very shocking something that as been absent or lost history for over thousands of years, quran comes up with the statement what the religion of Sumerian was during prophet Abrahams pbuh time.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by farhad

The astral triniad was lost history of Sumerians, quran addressed before excavation that it was god of moon, sun and star of Venus, formed the trinity something missing from other source.

I'll get back to other responses as due to work could not read all post

This is the problem those with no 'faith' (like me) have with religion, it seems a total hotch potch of beliefs from across the ages as well as the globe.
Yes I agree that the sun moon and stars is akin to the holy trinity and Jesus is considered to be the morning star (venus).

'A year and seven months earlier, The star led the magi west by rising in the east on August 24, 2 BC the Bright Morning Star rose in the east about 4 minutes before sunrise about 12.5 degrees south of where the sun rose. It rose and was visible in the sky and throughout the day as the day star and preceded the sun until about 50 minutes before sundown, it set in the west at the horizon in the direction of kingdom of Judah (from Babylon or Persia)'

( August 24th is my birthday )

[arista]

Farhad
even Barbie is with us.

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

omfg

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by farhad

InOne, if you don't believe me read the encyclodpedia Britannica.



Quran mentioned the 3 trinity of their diety, moon, sun and venus or star. It's very shocking something that as been absent or lost history for over thousands of years, quran comes up with the statement what the religion of Sumerian was during prophet Abrahams pbuh time.

Farhad -you realise that really you are just trying to persuade yourself about something that deep down you dont really believe?

Dont listen to what you have been told about, make your own mind up. Forget the Koran and expand your reading and get into this century, where you exist..now.

[Kizzy]

We all do that, it's human nature to question ... it's natural to want to know the origins of our existence.
You could view the great flood as the first example of genocide, god is vengeful and so are we.
It all makes sense to a point in as much as it was recorded world wide, and for me that is more important than the modern day interpretations that are open to manipulation.

[Shaun]

arista ily

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by farhad

InOne, if you don't believe me read the encyclodpedia Britannica.

Quran mentioned the 3 trinity of their diety, moon, sun and venus or star. It's very shocking something that as been absent or lost history for over thousands of years, quran comes up with the statement what the religion of Sumerian was during prophet Abrahams pbuh time.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormon religion, is built upon the solitary claims of one man, Joseph Smith Jr, who claimed that, both Jesus Christ and God himself appeared to him in 1820 in a forest while he was completely alone, followed by visits in 1823, from an angel named Moroni - who was an ancient Nephite warrior.

Islam is built upon the solitary claims of one man, Muhammad, who claimed that he was visited by the Archangel Gabriel in 610 whilst alone meditating in a cave near Mecca, followed by other visitations from Gabriel.

Two of the world's great religions - both built upon nothing but pure, blind FAITH.

In both cases, there are no other witnesses who saw or heard anything; we only have the testimony of Smith and Muhammad, but I'm not saying that either is false, so now we have a huge problem.

Both have the same degree of validity, so deciding that Muhammad's testimony is truthful and Smith's is not - or vice versa - is but personal choice, because neither has the corroboration of direct shared eyewitness evidence from others.

So what if both are correct?

Then that immediately destroys the Muslim argument that Muhammad is God's Final Prophet, because Smith received his Divine Authority 1200 years after Muhammad.

You claim the 'Astral Triad' revelation as proof that Gabriel dictated the Quran to Muhammad, and the Mormons claim Joseph Smith's 'Golden Plates as proof that the source of his authorship was Divine.

I will answer your 'Astral Trinity' point in the next post - if you respond to this and the previous post and actually address the points made in them instead of merely pasting the same quotes.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormon religion, is built upon the solitary claims of one man, Joseph Smith Jr, who claimed that, both Jesus Christ and God himself appeared to him in 1820 in a forest while he was completely alone, followed by visits in 1823, from an angel named Moroni - who was an ancient Nephite warrior.

Islam is built upon the solitary claims of one man, Muhammad, who claimed that he was visited by the Archangel Gabriel in 610 whilst alone meditating in a cave near Mecca, followed by other visitations from Gabriel.

Two of the world's great religions - both built upon nothing but pure, blind FAITH.

In both cases, there are no other witnesses who saw or heard anything; we only have the testimony of Smith and Muhammad, but I'm not saying that either is false, so now we have a huge problem.

Both have the same degree of validity, so deciding that Muhammad's testimony is truthful and Smith's is not - or vice versa - is but personal choice, because neither has the corroboration of direct shared eyewitness evidence from others.

So what if both are correct?

Then that immediately destroys the Muslim argument that Muhammad is God's Final Prophet, because Smith received his Divine Authority 1200 years after Muhammad.

You claim the 'Astral Triad' revelation as proof that Gabriel dictated the Quran to Muhammad, and the Mormons claim Joseph Smith's 'Golden Plates as proof that the source of his authorship was Divine.

I will answer your 'Astral Trinity' point in the next post - if you respond to this and the previous post and actually address the points made in them instead of merely pasting the same quotes.

[farhad]

Kirklancaster so far you have explained the concidence of Quran's mention the interlink of the astral trinity of Sumerian god around Abraham's time on rerference to moon, sun and the night star of venus, something that was lost in history and absent from any other manuscript, bible which came over 1000 years before quran did not mention it. Its a coincidence as well the coincidence of the lost city of iram.

Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English.

[farhad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

This is the problem those with no 'faith' (like me) have with religion, it seems a total hotch potch of beliefs from across the ages as well as the globe.
Yes I agree that the sun moon and stars is akin to the holy trinity and Jesus is considered to be the morning star (venus).

'A year and seven months earlier, The star led the magi west by rising in the east on August 24, 2 BC the Bright Morning Star rose in the east about 4 minutes before sunrise about 12.5 degrees south of where the sun rose. It rose and was visible in the sky and throughout the day as the day star and preceded the sun until about 50 minutes before sundown, it set in the west at the horizon in the direction of kingdom of Judah (from Babylon or Persia)'

( August 24th is my birthday )

You still have not come up with a rational counter challenge to it and keep avoiding it.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by farhad

"Kirklancaster so far you have explained the concidence of Quran's mention the interlink of the astral trinity of Sumerian god around Abraham's time on rerference to moon, sun and the night star of venus, something that was lost in history and absent from any other manuscript, bible which came over 1000 years before quran did not mention it. Its a coincidence as well the coincidence of the lost city of iram.

Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English."

The problem here Farhad, is the same problem which I have personally encountered in real life whenever I have held discussions with Muslims, or tried to engage Muslims in any debate; you are deviously ignoring my responses to you, so that you can avoid having to address the questions I raise in them because you haven't any answers. Instead, as all Muslims do in trying to defend that which is indefensible and rationalise that which is illogical, you keep trotting out the same ready-prepared 'facts' in deflection, because - as a good Muslim - this is what you have been schooled to do.

The truth is that when examined, such 'facts' prove to be fallacies, or in the case of your much prized "Astral Trinity" quote, when examined and weighed against the other 'scientific facts' in the Quran do not pass scrutiny nor constitute any type of proof at all.

One of these standard 'facts' instilled into Muslims to produce as 'evidence' to justify Islam (and there aren't many) is your earlier claim of "Jesus using the word "Muslim" in Luke 6:40: "Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo" to which I gave a very valid and detailed counter response of just why this 'claim is mere fallacy conveniently dressed as fact, but to which you now counter: "Regards to jesus using the word muslim, he quite clearly used it in Aramaic, he spoke Aramaic and Hebrew not greek or English"

Yes, Jesus did speak Aramaic, but the irrefutable facts are that the writings which formed the 'New testament' were written and circulated in Greek, including the Gospels of Luke and John, the Book of Acts, the Epistles, and the Book of Revelation and the oldest known manuscripts of Matthew and Mark - from 60 A.D. - are in Greek.

Some scholars - including Islamic - have contended that the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic and only later translated into Greek, but this is pure speculation which flies in the face of the evidence including the very real fact that no fragments of the Aramaic text have ever been found.

So I will reiterate my perfectly valid rebuttal of your claim bearing in mind that I am referring below not to the Aramaic spoken words of Christ, but to the Greek which they were originally written down in, because - obviously - we have no tape or digital recordings of Christ's speech:

"The actual words Christ said were: "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained (katertismenos) will be like his teacher." Luke 6:40.

The actual Greek word used: ‘katertismenos’ is at the root of the Muslim claim because Muslim polemicists maintain that translated into Hebrew, the word becomes ‘Mushlam’ which they state equates to the Arabic word Muslim.

However, in Luke 6:40 Jesus did not use a proper noun meaning "those who submit." He used the participle ‘katertismenos’, which means "being made ready, prepared, or trained”.

In any event, whichever sense Christ used the word ‘Katertismenos’ in, it is nonsensical for anyone to claim that Jesus used the word Mushlam to actually mean ‘Muslim’ 600 years before Islam was even founded.

To claim as much is known as ‘Chronological Fallacy’ or when somebody ascribes to an historical word a later definition or meaning. It is as ridiculous as saying that Jesus referred to me as ‘blessed’ on the Sermon on The Mount, because my name is Kirk Meek and he said; “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth”.

Of course Farhad, I do not expect you to accept any of this, because facts, logic, and integrity, are no match for fallacy, unreasonableness, and brainwashing.

Your "Astral Triad" will be addressed in the next post.