[Kizzy]

Among the proposals worked up by Iain Duncan Smith’s Department of Work and Pensions are:

Taxing disability benefits: Disability Living Allowance, Personal Independence Payments and Attendance Allowance (for over 65s who have personal care needs) would no longer be paid tax free. Saving potentially £1.5 billion a year.
Ending the Industrial Injuries Compensation Scheme: Forcing companies to provide industrial injury insurance policy for employees. Saving £1 billion.
Restricting Carer’s Allowance: Only those eligible for Universal Credit could claim, meaning 40 per cent of claimants would lose out. Saving £1 billion
Scrapping contributions element of Job Seekers Allowance: Currently claimants who have paid enough National Insurance contributions can get the benefits with little means testing. Over 300,000 families, would lose about £80 per week, if they did not get full entitlement. Saving £1.3 billion over three years.
Child Benefit cuts: Limiting the benefit to the first two children. Saving £1 billion over time.
Regional Benefit Caps: The £23,000 limit would vary in different parts of the country, so Londoners receive the top amount due to the higher cost of living. Possible saving unknown but spells the end of universal benefits.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...e-cuts-5414424

[Livia]

There's always a glut of "leaked" information or quotes from an unnamed "insider" around election time. Especially in the tabloids.

[LeatherTrumpet]

There seems to be some myth going around that there are no savings to be made in welfare?

[Kizzy]

'The Conservatives are considering options for scrapping several benefits, Department for Work and Pensions documents seen by the BBC suggest.
The leaked files, commissioned by Tory officials, also suggest a regional benefits cap and taxing disability benefits as ways to help cut £12bn from the welfare budget by 2017/18.
The Conservatives insisted the proposals were not party policy.
Labour's Rachel Reeves said the public had a "right to know" the plans.
The shadow work and pensions secretary has written to the Conservatives demanding they explain what welfare cuts they intend to make.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32084722

[DemolitionRed]

Well what a surprise...yet more abuse of the welfare system! I don't know why they just don't re-open the workhouses and bring back 'poor law' to forbid us feeding the starving....Rule *********g Britannia.


Oh and btw, leaked documents are not lies!

[smudgie]

Aren't these just the proposals that are being thrown about?
No doubt some of it will become policy..just the same as some won't.

I would love to see what all the main party policies are on their welfare budget cuts are.
I reckon all these leaks are testing the waters as well, as usual.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Aren't these just the proposals that are being thrown about?
No doubt some of it will become policy..just the same as some won't.

I would love to see what all the main party policies are on their welfare budget cuts are.
I reckon all these leaks are testing the waters as well, as usual.

The Conservatives insisted the proposals were not party policy.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Well what a surprise...yet more abuse of the welfare system! I don't know why they just don't re-open the workhouses and bring back 'poor law' to forbid us feeding the starving....Rule *********g Britannia.


Oh and btw, leaked documents are not lies!

It's not been verified these documents exist except for a sensational story in a tabloid. And yet some are willing not only to believe them, but to stand up for them. Tomorrow the tabloids will print something negative about Labour and there will be people in here saying how the tabloids suck and shouldn't be relied on for news.

[Vicky.]

I don't know how I feel about some of these tbh. Disability benefits are meant to be equal to a wage..and a wage gets taxed so I dont really see much problem with that. A guy I know on disability actually gets more now than when he was working..but at the same time I don't think we should be taking away from disabled people :S

I have always been torn on the limiting child benefit thing. In theory...great. But in reality there is no guaranteed way to not get pregnant besides sterilization (which fails too sometimes) and abstinence.

Carers allowance should be left well alone. These people who care for their relatives save the state millions and trying to get people off carers allowance is just wrong, they dedicate their lives to helping people..and wont be able to do that without an income. If anything, carers allowance should be raised.

I didnt realise people could get contributions based JSA/ESA whilst in work to begin with tbh.

Regional benefits caps make sense. However I do hope somethings going to be done about the extortionate private rents in certain areas at the same time. Its all well and good saying X gets 600 per week, thats more than I make working! But chances are 4-500 of it goes right to the landlord. There is of course the argument that people could move when they become unemployed to counter this. But the problem is..how long is one allowed to be seeking work before being deemed a parasite who should be moved on?

All in all, these proposals DO seem very tory. But there is no proof of anything, it could well be all bull. But to me, it does seem about right. If they are still refusing to touch pensions, then this is the only way they can cut more realistically.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's not been verified these documents exist except for a sensational story in a tabloid. And yet some are willing not only to believe them, but to stand up for them. Tomorrow the tabloids will print something negative about Labour and there will be people in here saying how the tabloids suck and shouldn't be relied on for news.

It was initially leaked to the BBC. The thing about the rules of journalism is, that although a journalist is under no obligation to reveal his sources there are exceptions and one of those exceptions are parliamentary matters. In other words, the government can demand to see the source from which this propaganda came.

Its an editors job to ask the questions and in this case, because it could come back and bite him/her on the nose, has to assure himself that this has come from a very good source because the government are within their right to be informed about this whistle-blower.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

It was initially leaked to the BBC. The thing about the rules of journalism is, that although a journalist is under no obligation to reveal his sources there are exceptions and one of those exceptions are parliamentary matters. In other words, the government can demand to see the source from which this propaganda came.

Its an editors job to ask the questions and in this case, because it could come back and bite him/her on the nose, has to assure himself that this has come from a very good source because the government are within their right to be informed about this whistle-blower.

I'm guessing you are not a journalist and I'm certain you know nothing more about the said documents than I do. And I know how it works... I'm a lawyer who used to work in politics.

[joeysteele]

Ideas they say and not policy,I have heard that before from all aprties, oddly enough the ideas can become policy 'once' in govt;
In them are some answers as to the things the Conservative party 'could' cut as part fo the 12 billion they need to as to welfare.

Look, it is simple for me, the Conservatives at present under this leader, are going too far, they have already gone where even Margaret Thatcher wouldn't even have done as to those most vulnerable.
She was thought of as cruel but she never went down these roads.

This leader and PM supports 100% Ian Duncan Smith in his, what I call vendetta, against those in the greatest need as to his quest to root out that small minority who are getting any benefits wrongly.

They will have to go down the route of hitting disability benefits to make any savings, the Conservatives have ruled out any changes to universal benefits to,and the extras to all pensioners, rich and poor alike.
So there is only the disability, jobseekers and carers allowances that can be further hit by them.

This is to me,likely more than just things on the table to look at, it answers in part what they are likely to do, god forbid, with an overall majority.
people are and have been clearly warned as to these dangers now,on this and other issues, if they then make the mistake of giving the Conservatives unchecked power, then the price the most vulnerable will pay again, will be even greater than the last 5 years.

It is simply a total disgrace and sadly this PM and leader of the Conservative's words and re-assurances don't mean a single thing.
So voters are warned.
Whatever they do, I hope they turn from the Conservatives in droves for their heartlessness over the last 5 years and the likely harder line they will take against the most vulnerable again in the next 4 to 5 years too.

No wonder Cameron says he won't seek a third term, he knows only too well how rotten and unjust his govt; is going to be over the next 4 to 5 years in his 2nd term if he gets it.
leaks like this give a small pointer as to what they are looking at, and already that is bad enough to make me for one really cringe at the thouyght of them in power again.

[kirklancaster]

Methinks 'The Tempest' over yond leak is 'Much Ado About Nothing'. A falsety, written by 'Othello' who is socialist and fears the Tories so desires not to see his 'Love's Labour's Lost' election. Tis but 'A Winter's Tale' - scaremongering about Benefits being cut 'Measure For Measure', and to print it is but 'A Comedy of Errors'. This deceit may not be 'As You Like It', but I'll wager by 'The Twelfth Night' after yond forthcoming Election, this crud will be exposed for what it is; a great pile of 'Richard 111''s. Then will ye be saying; 'All's Well That Ends Well'.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Methinks 'The Tempest' over yond leak is 'Much Ado About Nothing'. A falsety, written by 'Othello' who is socialist and fears the Tories so desires not to see his 'Love's Labour's Lost' election. Tis but 'A Winter's Tale' - scaremongering about Benefits being cut 'Measure For Measure', and to print it is but 'A Comedy of Errors'. This deceit may not be 'As You Like It', but I'll wager by 'The Twelfth Night' after yond forthcoming Election, this crud will be exposed for what it is; a great pile of 'Richard 111''s. Then will ye be saying; 'All's Well That Ends Well'.

How nice it would be if you were right but alas I think it not be the case.
Great way of posting Kirklancaster, well put.

I however feel this is too much nearer the truth than I would like it to be,all powers that be help the most vulnerable if these get in again,that's my view anyway.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm guessing you are not a journalist and I'm certain you know nothing more about the said documents than I do. And I know how it works... I'm a lawyer who used to work in politics.

Well actually I have a close family member who is an investigative journalist for the Independent.

I spent years working as a barristers clerk at Grays Inn (We may well of met) and spent a great deal of time within the parliamentary buildings. I'm neither ignorant around the laws and etiquette of journalism and although I probably know a lot less about law than you do (depending of course on what sort of lawyer you are) I'm not as naive as you seem to be pointing out.

[JoshBB]

If we had a 50p top tax rate, or even just a 46/47 top tax rate.. and we made sure every person weren't avoiding paying it.. then we wouldn't need to even do this. these people are vulnerable and need these benefits to live.

be more harsh on false claimants by all means, but don't punish those who need them.

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=JoshBB;7668377]If we had a 50p top tax rate, or even just a 46/47 top tax rate.. and we made sure every person weren't avoiding paying it.. then we wouldn't need to even do this. these people are vulnerable and need these benefits to live.

be more harsh on false claimants by all means, but don't punish those who need them.[/QUOTE]

Therein lies one of the answers to the UKs problems.
Odd how if the tax reduced it is claimed we get more but if it is higher, the govt and inland revenue are unable to know who and what they should be paying.

Tighten up on that as you say, and stop kicking people already surviving on a pittance in relation to the funds lost in tax avoidance of any sort.

Sadly, the bit I have highlighted in bold on your post, seems to be one of the only things this govt; is willing to enthusiastically set out to do to those who are vulnerable, with not an ounce of compassion and caring as to the consequences of such heartless and unjust policies.

[Kizzy]

Joey in your opinion how likely is it that these are not the real proposals leaked by the BBC?

[Vicky.]

It does seem to be likely top be true, given that they said 12bn of cuts, no pensioners perks being touched. This is pretty much all that is left.

The carers allowance thing is pissing me off so much though. The government should be thanking these people for doing what they do, not trying to hack away at their income in the name of cuts. Cuts that WE DON'T EVEN NEED, or wouldn't if ANY of the political parties would actually clamp down completely on tax avoidance.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Joey in your opinion how likely is it that these are not the real proposals leaked by the BBC?

I think they are real Kizzy, this govt; cannot be trusted, these have come from somewhere and the statement that these are not policies but just ideas or thoughts,doesn't wash with me.

The Conservatives have to find 12 billion of cuts to welfare,they cannot cut pensions so this is where they would need to look to make more cuts in welfare.
This PM is a compulsive political liar and political con man, he talks about protecting those who need it but all his policies have devastated the lives of many of the most vulnerable and totally unjustly too.

I think they have been rumbled and these are real proposals,furthermore if Cameron and this Conservative party got an overall majority, these proposals and many other heartless and unjust ones would be flooding in too.
Just to get the 12 billion of cuts needed for the Conservative party's plans for welfare cuts.

This is a PM who should not be trusted with the most vulnerable livelihoods at all.
No one can say after the event if the Conservatives got an overall majority, that they were not warned and for me these proposals show their real thinking in my view, no matter the garbage that comes out of their mouths as to any show of caring, words of supposed caring which are totally false in my view.

[bitontheslide]

"Among the proposals worked up by Iain Duncan Smith’s Department of Work and Pensions are: ..."

Two things can be drawn from this:

If the information is incorrect, they have named IDS so it would be easy enough for him to deny it, if it was false.

The key word here is proposal. Proposals are drawn up for consideration all the time, it doesn't automatically mean that they will be implemented.

However, the Tories are committed to making further cuts, they have stated that they will do it. With so many cuts already implemented, further cuts will hit hard, its impossible to avoid that and it will affect a lot of people. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a planned leak to test the water.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Well actually I have a close family member who is an investigative journalist for the Independent.

I spent years working as a barristers clerk at Grays Inn (We may well of met) and spent a great deal of time within the parliamentary buildings. I'm neither ignorant around the laws and etiquette of journalism and although I probably know a lot less about law than you do (depending of course on what sort of lawyer you are) I'm not as naive as you seem to be pointing out.

I have a close family member who is a tailor. I can't sew a button on.

I'm not suggesting you are ignorant. However, your post I felt was a little didactic.

[joeysteele]

Why does TV even bother to bring on Ian Duncan Smith, talking about this issue this morning on Andrew Marr, who was in my view really weak in the interview process with I.D.S.
He was allowed to dismiss anything as to it, misrepresent the experts conclusion as to the % this would be as to cuts to welfare and then Ian Duncan Smith has the audacity and arrogance to say the voters are not likely to be even told what the cuts will be until the time the Conservatives decide to do them after the election.

What an unbelievable statement on such a sensitive and really serious issue as to the most vulnerable peoples benefit entitlements.
His interviews are like old pals acts,he just dismisses near everything and frankly tells political lies.
What a disagrace this miserable excuse of a man has any say whatsoever in anyones lives or incomes, let alone the most vulnerable.

I think the proposals outlined in this thread are going to in fact be turned into policy, after the election if the Conservatives were to horrendously get an overall majority.

He totally missed the point that the expert said since the Conservatives are not going to touch pension benefits at all then the cuts will have to come from the rest of welfare spending and the cuts would make up around 10% of that.

Should state pension payments be classed as 'benefits' anyway, that is something the vast majority of people have paid their contributions for during their working lives.

This was a really pathetic interview with Ian Duncan Smith, I could easily believe, he will only do interviews if he is allowed to control the proceedings as he clearly did with Marr this morning, never really pressed on a single issue.

[billy123]

Youtube video

[joeysteele]

The simple fact is, the Conservatives have form for doing the most heartless and in my view unjust acts against the most vulnerable over the last 5 years, it was expected hard decisions would have to be made but the changes to those most vulnerable were too deep and too fast.

Now it is clear, and the Conservatives have said, they will be making a further 12 billion cuts from welfare which is on top of the all the savage cuts that went before,causing deperate hardship for a good number of those in need.

It is getting clearer to me that these proposals coupled with what the expert said on Marr this morning, is the likely only way they can get to that figure of cuts.
Since we are told by this arrogant and smug shower, that we will not be told, what cuts, when and where until the election is over then that stinks to high heaven for me.

Kizzy was right to make this thread, the 'proposals' are real, they are being discussed in the media and in the absence of the Conservatives not putting alternative proposals in their place to inform the voters as to welfare cuts again.
Then for me, it is totally justified to assume as Kizzy and I are,they are conning the voters again,just as they did last time, even on on the no NHS top down re-organisation, that was started in the 2nd year of being in govt; despite it not being policy either.

I wouldn't trust David Cameron to pick a piece of litter up never mind be PM of the govt; of the UK again for a further disastrous 5 years being littered with more lies, as to what was said in the election,just as this govt; has from 2010.