[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So what?... All the election is based on atm is point scoring. Boris the bumbler and mr Gray the adulterer making slur after slur as well as the PM insisting that labour and the SNP are 'pickpockets'.
He is as entitled to an opinion, as he wasn't personally responsible for those either.

Well it will go against him, the Labour campaign has been pretty strong until now (in England anyway) but most people are agreeing that this is a big own goal

[Kizzy]

24hrs is a long time in politics, it'll be forgotten about by teatime

[Kizzy]

'Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP leader, has said that the SNP would oppose Cameron’s Evel plans.'



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...to-for-england

[Kizzy]

Ed Miliband more likely to get keys to No 10, say pollsters

Alberto Nardelli Alberto Nardelli
Earlier this month we asked Britain’s leading pollsters who they thought was winning the election. Back then, with a month to go, although most said Miliband had a slight advantage, not all agreed.

However, now with less than two weeks to the election, when it comes to who will have the numbers to become prime minister, they all now believe that the Labour leader is best positioned in the polls – but in an election this close, uncertainty remains.

We asked this question of eight leading pollsters:

Based on today’s figures, who, between Ed Miliband and David Cameron, do you think is in a better position with just over a month to election day?

[joeysteele]

I think he is actually only saying what a good few people think.
I actually said this myself 2 days ago, that what Cameron led the UK into with the French then got involved in as to Libya, have contributed in part to this situation now.
Were there a better situation in Libya and had we made sure there was too,then we could have been far better placed to sort out at that source people fleeing from other areas.

That is what Miliband is saying,not that Cameron is personally responsible for deaths but with more careful planning as to the Libya exercises, he certainly could have ensured a far more stable set up there.

As I said, I was saying exactly this 2 days ago, on here too, someone agreed, I will need to look back as to who,in saying they too wondered if Cameron and Sarkosy were now still pleased with their Libyan action.

I think a lot of people will be thinking the same actually.

Ed Miliband for instance has had a senior Minister saying he would stab the UK in the back as a Prime Minister, that seems acceptable to say however.

Ed Miliband, did not and would not have voted for action in Iraq, he opposed that and saw the chaos that came from our involvement there
David Cameron also saw the chaos that came from that, and he as the serving PM should have ensured that whatever he took part in as to Libya,resulted in nothing like the chaos after Iraq.
He didn't and now we have this disastrous affair,now he has his own Iraq really in a way.
He left Libya to become a worse place than it was before.

No one blames him for the deaths obviously but he does, in my view, bear a fair amount of responsibilty along with the French leader too,since they against the wishes of most of Europe got involved in Libya in the first place,for these horrific events unfolding now.

All I can say now further is, thank goodness Ed Miliband led Labour to oppose any involvement as to Syria,since this PM David Cameron would have escalated tensions and probably made matters even worse had he got his way to take action there too.

I applaud Ed Miliband today,I love it when people say what I am already thinking anyway.
Seriously though, I was against the Libyan exercises too,maybe Miliband would have been better not to support that too, however it would have still been done then anyway, with or without the support of any opposition parties.

The Conservatives supported the Iraq invasion, both times it was done, Cameron was right to say when he did not long ago that we should have looked at the consequences of that, as to what we left afterwards.

Well he should have learned from that and as PM made sure any mistakes along the same lines did not come into play after his Libyan action.
He failed to do so and now the world is facing in part, the effects of what he has sown there which are happening daily now as to these tragic losses of life.

I hope Cameron can live with himself,which is why he and Sarkosy should be ashamed of their action as to Libya.
Also the UK and French ought to be bending over backwards to do everything, not just 'barely' enough, to sort this horrific mess out,not piling the pressure only on Italy.

For ill judged action,very badly planned as to the consequences and aftermath of same, there is now little to choose between Blair's Iraq situation and now David Cameron's Libyan actions,in my view.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think he is actually only saying what a good few people think.
I actually said this myself 2 days ago, that what Cameron led the UK into with the French then got involved in as to Libya, have contributed in part to this situation now.
Were there a better situation in Libya and had we made sure there was too,then we could have been far better placed to sort out at that source people fleeing from other areas.

That is what Miliband is saying,not that Cameron is personally responsible for deaths but with more careful planning as to the Libya exercises, he certainly could have ensured a far more stable set up there.

As I said, I was saying exactly this 2 days ago, on here too, someone agreed, I will need to look back as to who,in saying they too wondered if Cameron and Sarkosy were now still pleased with their Libyan action.

I think a lot of people will be thinking the same actually.

Ed Miliband for instance has had a senior Minister saying he would stab the UK in the back as a Prime Minister, that seems acceptable to say however.

Ed Miliband, did not and would not have voted for action in Iraq, he opposed that and saw the chaos that came from our involvement there
David Cameron also saw the chaos that came from that, and he as the serving PM should have ensured that whatever he took part in as to Libya,resulted in nothing like the chaos after Iraq.
He didn't and now we have this disastrous affair,now he has his own Iraq really in a way.
He left Libya to become a worse place than it was before.

No one blames him for the deaths obviously but he does, in my view, bear a fair amount of responsibilty along with the French leader too,since they against the wishes of most of Europe got involved in Libya in the first place,for these horrific events unfolding now.

All I can say now further is, thank goodness Ed Miliband led Labour to oppose any involvement as to Syria,since this PM David Cameron would have escalated tensions and probably made matters even worse had he got his way to take action there too.

I applaud Ed Miliband today,I love it when people say what I am already thinking anyway.
Seriously though, I was against the Libyan exercises too,maybe Miliband would have been better not to support that too, however it would have still been done then anyway, with or without the support of any opposition parties.

The Conservatives supported the Iraq invasion, both times it was done, Cameron was right to say when he did not long ago that we should have looked at the consequences of that, as to what we left afterwards.

Well he should have learned from that and as PM made sure any mistakes along the same lines did not come into play after his Libyan action.
He failed to do so and now the world is facing in part, the effects of what he has sown there which are happening daily now as to these tragic losses of life.

I hope Cameron can live with himself,which is why he and Sarkosy should be ashamed of their action as to Libya.
Also the UK and French ought to be bending over backwards to do everything, not just enough, to sort this horrific mess out,not piling the pressure only on Italy.

For ill judged action,very badly planned as to the consequences and aftermath of same, there is now little to choose between Blair's Iraq situation and now David Cameron's Libyan actions,in my view.

Yes it was me who agreed with you, and not to blow my own trumpet but I have been talking about this ever since the possibility of intervening was first raised 3 or 4 years ago But the way in which Miliband has raised this issue is naked opportunism and nothing more. The failure of intervention was obvious very soon after Gaddafi's death; Libya's descent into chaos has been happening almost ever since. Not once has Miliband raised this in PMQs, not once has he brought the issue forward in a substantial way. Now he wants to talk about post-intervention planning? Why could that be? He was never keen to discuss it before, he was never keen to discuss it in regard to Iraq where he voted four times against an enquiry, and lets not forget he is the leader of the party which has a shameful foreign policy record in the last fifteen years.

And Miliband supported Libya intervention in the first place! In fact 557 MPs did, only 13 voted against it. So let's not get into a finger pointing game. I say again that the disaster of Libya was not the post-intervention planning, it was the decision to intervene in the first place.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Very cheap point scoring from Miliband today, not heard a peep from him about post-conflict planning and now suddenly he starts ranting about it 2 weeks before the election when the migrant drownings have just happened hmm. And this from the man who voted 4 times against an enquiry into the Iraq war...

Anyway the disaster of Libya was the decision to intervene in the first place not just what happened after, and that decision was fully supported by Labour at the time

Ouch..I didnt know this. What possible reason could there be NOT to vote in favor of an enquiry

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Ouch..I didnt know this. What possible reason could there be NOT to vote in favor of an enquiry

It would affect his chance of becoming PM if the inquiry was held before the election.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It would affect his chance of becoming PM if the inquiry was held before the election.

But wasnt this waaay back when labour had no chance anyway? (ie when brown had ****ed them)

[Kizzy]

it shows a mixture of for and against here...
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/115...ons?policy=975

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

it shows a mixture of for and against here...
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/115...ons?policy=975

On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted no on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry
On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted yes on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry


WTF?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yes it was me who agreed with you, and not to blow my own trumpet but I have been talking about this ever since the possibility of intervening was first raised 3 or 4 years ago But the way in which Miliband has raised this issue is naked opportunism and nothing more. The failure of intervention was obvious very soon after Gaddafi's death; Libya's descent into chaos has been happening almost ever since. Not once has Miliband raised this in PMQs, not once has he brought the issue forward in a substantial way. Now he wants to talk about post-intervention planning? Why could that be? He was never keen to discuss it before, he was never keen to discuss it in regard to Iraq where he voted four times against an enquiry, and lets not forget he is the leader of the party which has a shameful foreign policy record in the last fifteen years.

And Miliband supported Libya intervention in the first place! In fact 557 MPs did, only 13 voted against it. So let's not get into a finger pointing game. I say again that the disaster of Libya was not the post-intervention planning, it was the decision to intervene in the first place.

I don't think Labour has any more a shameful record as to foreign policy than some previous govts;
Iraq was as wrong the first time in 1990,in my view, never mind the 2nd time under Labour.
Maybe had they gone about it the right way in 1990,there would have been no need for a 2nd invasion at all.
I didn't see the need to get so heavily entrenched in Afghanistan either.

The Conservatives supported Iraq but some of them are doing an about turn as to it now too, well after the event.

What I will concede is that Miliband should have been pressing the mess left in Libya more,however I have watched political programmes where the moment Labour mentioned things like Libya,they got a backlash for Iraq and the mess left there.

What is a fact, is the fact that Miliband wasn't even an MP when the Iraq vote was taken and he has always said he disagreed with same.
He may not have raised Libya in public,I don't know for sure whether he has or not.
He did make reference to the chaos looming in Libya at the time he was consulted on would he support action in Syria however.
Which to his full credit, he refused to do,even firmly getting the vote passed too,to close the door on leaving options open for Cameron to take action in Syria if necessary without a new vote in parliament.

I think foreign policy under this govt; has been as much a disaster as the previous govt;
It doesn't,for me anyway, bear thinking about as to where we and the world would be, had David Cameron got his way to go into Syria too.
This is bad enough.

I didn't agree with action in Libya and was disappointed Labour backed it too,however, with the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,the vote would have passed anyway,very easily.
However further, just as Labour have to take the responsibility as to how we left Iraq, which although the Conservatives supported,they were not the govt; of the day so cannot be held responsible for the aftermath of same.

That same scenario applies here, and this PM had the hindsight of Iraq to look to as to Libya.
Although Labour supported the action, it had to be down to the govt; in power to see the action and aftermath through.
What we are seeing now is the total failure of Cameron to learn from history with full hindsight of events too and to have done not a thing as the situation he helped bring about in Libya got worse and worse.

[Alf]

How can anybody vote conservative when working people are needing to use food banks? That is absolutely disgusting.

I don't yet know whom to vote for, but I may have to go for Labour who are a little more human than the tory's but are still no help to the people they're suppose to represent.

Greedy gangsters will be running our Country whoever gets in.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by wannashag

How can anybody vote conservative when working people are needing to use food banks? That is absolutely disgusting.

I don't yet know whom to vote for, but I may have to go for Labour who are a little more human than the tory's but are still no help to the people they're suppose to represent.

Greedy gangsters will be running our Country whoever gets in.

Because foodbanks existed under labour (granted for many fewer people but we have to ignore this) and labour is entirely to blame for the global recession and as such its labours fault that the benefit cuts (that have seen no savings, as they are pure ideology and were never about saving money..but we must ignore this too) are therefor labours fault. Of course.

We must never hold the conservatives responsible for viewing the poorest people as vermin who should crawl into a corner and die off. Always blame labour

[Kizzy]

Boris Johnson Shadow Minister (Higher Education), Education
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that an inquiry could urgently consider our catastrophic failure before and after the war to protect Iraqi cultural heritage from systematic looting, which is devastating Iraq? If the Iraqis are to have any hope of rebuilding their country, that looting must be stopped. What have we in mind to prevent that? The Department for Culture, Media and Sport pledged Ł5 million, which has vanished, to stop the systematic looting. Would it not help the Iraqis to rebuild their future if they had some idea of what had allowed things to go so catastrophically wrong from the beginning?

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate...7-06-11b.532.1

Hypocrite...

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by wannashag

How can anybody vote conservative when working people are needing to use food banks? That is absolutely disgusting.

I don't yet know whom to vote for, but I may have to go for Labour who are a little more human than the tory's but are still no help to the people they're suppose to represent.

Greedy gangsters will be running our Country whoever gets in.

I am hearing this all the time.

For what the Conservatives have done to the most vulnerable,I could never support them, that and the NHS are the things that have taken me right away from them.

I voted Lib Dem and hoped for a successful coalition that would have been moderated and the NHS fully protected.
I got neither.

I have turned to Labour because I like the compassion in their policies and I hope they have learned,under this new leader from their mistakes in govt; before.

However like yourself, I am coming across more and more who will be voting Labour but only to get this lot out.
people in their 80s are saying,this is the cruellest govt; they have lived under.
The NHS is in near chaos again and unnecessarily due to a re-organisation.

I will have no doubt, if Labour win on May 7th, it will not be because of a passion for them particularly but in a great part to get rid of this heartless lot.
Under the election system we have, the only way to remove this govt; is to vote Labour.
That sadly is the reality of the situation,unless the Greens or UKIP are going to get around 35% in the opinion polls and votes,with Labour and the Conservatives down to something like 25%.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted no on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry
On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted yes on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry


WTF?

From what I can gather by a quick look at the debate it culminated in two votes, the first being over the wording of the question and the second being on the question itself. Miliband voted no on a question over the wording and then voted yes to the final resolution which was that the Commons "declines at this time, whilst the whole effort of the Government and the armed forces is directed towards improving the condition of Iraq, to make a proposal for a further inquiry which would divert attention from this vital task".

That website just proves that Miliband voted against an enquiry each time the issue was raised in parliament

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I don't think Labour has any more a shameful record as to foreign policy than some previous govts;
Iraq was as wrong the first time in 1990,in my view, never mind the 2nd time under Labour.
Maybe had they gone about it the right way in 1990,there would have been no need for a 2nd invasion at all.
I didn't see the need to get so heavily entrenched in Afghanistan either.

The Conservatives supported Iraq but some of them are doing an about turn as to it now too, well after the event.

What I will concede is that Miliband should have been pressing the mess left in Libya more,however I have watched political programmes where the moment Labour mentioned things like Libya,they got a backlash for Iraq and the mess left there.

What is a fact, is the fact that Miliband wasn't even an MP when the Iraq vote was taken and he has always said he disagreed with same.
He may not have raised Libya in public,I don't know for sure whether he has or not.
He did make reference to the chaos looming in Libya at the time he was consulted on would he support action in Syria however.
Which to his full credit, he refused to do,even firmly getting the vote passed too,to close the door on leaving options open for Cameron to take action in Syria if necessary without a new vote in parliament.

I think foreign policy under this govt; has been as much a disaster as the previous govt;
It doesn't,for me anyway, bear thinking about as to where we and the world would be, had David Cameron got his way to go into Syria too.
This is bad enough.

I didn't agree with action in Libya and was disappointed Labour backed it too,however, with the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,the vote would have passed anyway,very easily.
However further, just as Labour have to take the responsibility as to how we left Iraq, which although the Conservatives supported,they were not the govt; of the day so cannot be held responsible for the aftermath of same.

That same scenario applies here, and this PM had the hindsight of Iraq to look to as to Libya.
Although Labour supported the action, it had to be down to the govt; in power to see the action and aftermath through.
What we are seeing now is the total failure of Cameron to learn from history with full hindsight of events too and to have done not a thing as the situation he helped bring about in Libya got worse and worse.

But I'm not trying to compared Labour to the Conservatives here Joey. I know the Conservatives have ****ed up in Libya, that they have done so in the past, that they supported the Iraq war, that they would have intervened in Libya regardless of Miliband's support and that they would have done so in Syria as well as they could. I'm not trying to stand here as William Hague or Phillip Hammond and laud the Conservatives foreign policy and defend to the hilt every action that they took. On the contrary, I don't think this is a Labour-Conservative thing, I think it's a general Western thing where our global outlook has been in need of revision for quite some time. All I am saying is that I find the way that Miliband has commented on this and the timing as cynical and opportunistic and it does not reflect well on him imo.

[Kazanne]

It's such a cheap shot,makes me dislike him even more,he thinks he is ****in superman who will transform the UK,imo he is all mouth and there will be very little action,he also alluded to the HSBSs statement about moving from the UK as Camerons fault,twonk!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ervention.html

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by MTVN

From what I can gather by a quick look at the debate it culminated in two votes, the first being over the wording of the question and the second being on the question itself. Miliband voted no on a question over the wording and then voted yes to the final resolution which was that the Commons "declines at this time, whilst the whole effort of the Government and the armed forces is directed towards improving the condition of Iraq, to make a proposal for a further inquiry which would divert attention from this vital task".

That website just proves that Miliband voted against an enquiry each time the issue was raised in parliament



But I'm not trying to compared Labour to the Conservatives here Joey. I know the Conservatives have ****ed up in Libya, that they have done so in the past, that they supported the Iraq war, that they would have intervened in Libya regardless of Miliband's support and that they would have done so in Syria as well as they could. I'm not trying to stand here as William Hague or Phillip Hammond and laud the Conservatives foreign policy and defend to the hilt every action that they took. On the contrary, I don't think this is a Labour-Conservative thing, I think it's a general Western thing where our global outlook has been in need of revision for quite some time. All I am saying is that I find the way that Miliband has commented on this and the timing as cynical and opportunistic and it does not reflect well on him imo.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Because foodbanks existed under labour (granted for many fewer people but we have to ignore this) and labour is entirely to blame for the global recession and as such its labours fault that the benefit cuts (that have seen no savings, as they are pure ideology and were never about saving money..but we must ignore this too) are therefor labours fault. Of course.

We must never hold the conservatives responsible for viewing the poorest people as vermin who should crawl into a corner and die off. Always blame labour

What a fantastically constructed and impressive post, also sadly as to people most vulnerable, a totally true post too.
Really wish I had made this post,full of fair, valid and undisputable points, said in so few words too.

[Kizzy]

Youtube video

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted no on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry
On 11 Jun 2007: Edward Miliband voted yes on Opposition Day — Iraq Inquiry


WTF?

He used to be convinced that he was indecisive - now he can't make his mind up whether he is or not.

He used to think he was schizophrenic - now he's in two minds.

[Kizzy]

Tsk tsk Network rail remove this billboard due to their 'neutrality' :/

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...s-tuition-fees

[MTVN]

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by MTVN

FFS sake - absolutely ingenious.