[Withano]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

Don't put words in my mouth...

Joel quite rightly felt uncomfortable with Aaron's behaviour...you could see the faces of the other housemates that they felt uncomfortable with his. It just seemed a bit of a silly thing to do in light of what had happened just 24 hours before.

If people are uncomfortable with crossdressing (is that the point that either you or sarah were trying to make?) then thats their insecurity and not Joels problem.

[Visage]

While the choice of clothes wasn't to my taste I looked it from two angles.

Was Joel trying to bring some fun back after what had happened?

Did Eileen & Joel think dressing like that would make him look like a rock star?

Does Steven Tyler wear leopard skin leggings, do any rockers dress like Eileen dressed Joel ? I think they do.

[Visage]

Originally Posted by ThriceShy

I disagree. I think Joel's poor me act in the diary room is exactly what got aaron evicted. That is why they edited it into that particular sequence.

It was a narrative....aaron does it....gets called to diary room....gets sent to bed....joel goes in....aaron gets evicted.

It couldn't have been clearer.

That might be the sequence of events as they happened last night.

But I would say they told Aaron to go straight to bed with the intention of discussing the incident. Maybe there wasn't enough people in a position to make that kind of decision at 2:30 in the morning?

If they had evicted Aaron straight away (before talking to Joel) that might have been seen like they didn't look at the bigger picture and deemed unfair, at least the way they did this, the time they took to make that decision looks like they took all they could into consideration.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by Visage

That might be the sequence of events as they happened last night.

But I would say they told Aaron to go straight to bed with the intention of discussing the incident. Maybe there wasn't enough people in a position to make that kind of decision at 2:30 in the morning?

If they had evicted Aaron straight away (before talking to Joel) that might have been seen like they didn't look at the bigger picture and deemed unfair, at least the way they did this, the time they took to make that decision looks like they took all they could into consideration.

Exactly. And if Joel had said that it was all just a bit of banter then aaron would not have been evicted. They would not have asked joel if his input wasn't necessary.

Joel completely threw him under the bus.

[RockBottom]

Originally Posted by lily.

yawn.... this argument goes round in circles..

A man with a glass eye could see that Joel was not enjoying what Aaron was doing.

I think its a good time to invest in specsavers as there seems to be a lot of people requiring their services

[Daniel-X]

I don't think Joel's shot himself in the foot with the public but perhaps some of the housemates as none of them seem pleased apart from Eileen, the twins and Jade who laughed with him. I don't think it was distasteful he is allowed to laugh and joke after what's happened and any viewer or housemate who expects him to moap around after Aaron going is in fact an idiot.

Actually, I think it's better him doing what he's always done and messing around rather than diminishing his character just because of what happened with Aaron he shouldn't have to now walk on eggshells.

Sarah was a horrid rude bitch in the garden and I was so happy she went tonight a sore loser like her lapdog Harriet.

[ThriceShy]

Originally Posted by RockBottom

I think its a good time to invest in specsavers as there seems to be a lot of people requiring their services

It's probably better to invest in personal injury lawyers, with all the serious sexual assaults taking place between drunken friends.

[T*]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

He was trying to get Eileen to take her clothes off so he could get her thrown out.

[Daniel.]

Sarah scalped him

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by ThriceShy

Exactly. And if Joel had said that it was all just a bit of banter then aaron would not have been evicted. They would not have asked joel if his input wasn't necessary.

Joel completely threw him under the bus.

I think Joel genuinely felt uncomfortable with Aaron's unacceptable behaviour. Aaron went too far... But maybe Joel's dressing up in women's clothing and strutting around gave Aaron the impression that he could fool around the way he did.... And that Joel would just see it as a laugh...
Joel didn't know how to handle it...perhaps if he had told Aaron to **** off enough is enough...maybe Aaron would have stopped. However I don't think it is in Joel's nature to be forthright in that way. He seems to be quite diplomatic...but if he wants to be taken seriously he should IMO be more aware of how his behaviour can be construed.

[Liam-]

No he didn't, he didn't do anything wrong, yet again.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by rusticgal

But maybe Joel's dressing up in women's clothing and strutting around gave Aaron the impression that he could fool around the way he did.... And that Joel would just see it as a laugh...

I don't understand how you made this leap personally

[mrflibble]

Originally Posted by Josy

Lots of the males in BB have dressed up in women's clothes, they don't all ask to be sexually assaulted after it.

Not even replying to the victim blaming. Hey maybe Joels skirt was too short eh.

Totally agree.

And in regards to OP's original question; I thought the opposite. Sarah was absolutely disgusting in that argument and Joel was totally right. Although I disagree what Aaron did was sexual harassment and chucking him out the house was a bit extreme, I in no way think Joel was to blame for what happened.

He's dressed up in those clothes before and done his little dancing and singing. That's just what he's been like the entire time, he's having some fun. And even though it wouldn't matter if he was, he's not trying to be provocative. To use the sexual assault comparison, Sarah was basically saying that if someone was being provocative/wearing provocative clothing and someone went 'too far', then it was justified. She said don't put words into her mouth, but she blamed Joel and said he was provoking him - how can that be interpreted any other way? Aaron was removed because BIG BROTHER deemed his behaviour inappropriate. Sarah connecting Aaron's removal + Joel dressing up in women's clothes is Sarah making a connection between both acts being Joel purposely being sexually provocative and inviting 'attention'. Joel was clearly uncomfortable in that situation and didn't know how to react. Aaron was someone he seemed to be friends with in the house and probably didn't want to get too aggressive towards him (and maybe it's just not in his nature). I saw some posts on Twitter of people blaming Joel in the same way and I was absolutely disgusted.

I also think the 'smirk' was a nervous smile, I do the same thing when I'm feeling uncomfortable and unsure.

[BigBrotherfan4ever]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

What does Joel being camp have to do with Aaron being ejected for sexual misconduct? If Joel was gay it wouldn't make what Aaron did acceptable.

Sarah was being a hateful bint.

Absolutely agree, it really put off Sarah & I'm glad she has gone

[Maria26]

Everything about Joel screams DEVIOUS and MANIPULATOR. He knew exactly waht he was doing from the beginning. Well done little twat!

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

If people are uncomfortable with crossdressing (is that the point that either you or sarah were trying to make?) then thats their insecurity and not Joels problem.

I don't think that is the point at all, it just showed a lack of empathy for the HMs who were still coming to terms with Aarons removal. Aaron and Sarah were very close and Sarah considered him her best friend in there, the highlights didn't show this at all as they are so busy pushing a showmance, maybe they were trying to lift the house but the timing was all wrong

[bitontheslide]

Well, I think Joel is a bit of a contradiction, and that's why people don't like him.

He is of course entitled to do what he wants without getting unnecessary attention from a predator, but it can't be denied that his shouting from the roof tops, I'm straight, I'm straight, when his actions and mannerisms shout something completely different are going to rile people

[MrWong]

I'm glad that Joel's cross dressing went down like a lead balloon.

Hopefully he picks up a few noms this week.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Maria26

Everything about Joel screams DEVIOUS and MANIPULATOR. He knew exactly waht he was doing from the beginning. Well done little twat!

devious, manipulative odious little creep

[LeatherTrumpet]

so ideal for politics

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Visage

While the choice of clothes wasn't to my taste I looked it from two angles.

Was Joel trying to bring some fun back after what had happened?

Did Eileen & Joel think dressing like that would make him look like a rock star?

Does Steven Tyler wear leopard skin leggings, do any rockers dress like Eileen dressed Joel ? I think they do.

Hey great to see you back Visage.

I agree with all the above post.
There is a massive difference between a bit of fun,as this was with Joel and Eileen,as opposed to continuous harassment as was the case with Aaron towards Joel.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by GypsyGoth

He was trying to get Eileen to take her clothes off so he could get her thrown out.

....I love you...

Originally Posted by rusticgal

I think Joel genuinely felt uncomfortable with Aaron's unacceptable behaviour. Aaron went too far... But maybe Joel's dressing up in women's clothing and strutting around gave Aaron the impression that he could fool around the way he did.... And that Joel would just see it as a laugh...
Joel didn't know how to handle it...perhaps if he had told Aaron to **** off enough is enough...maybe Aaron would have stopped. However I don't think it is in Joel's nature to be forthright in that way. He seems to be quite diplomatic...but if he wants to be taken seriously he should IMO be more aware of how his behaviour can be construed.

..is that though not like saying that if someone dresses in a particular way as in this case 'camp'..that it would be or could be 'understandable' for someone to step over boundaries and invade personal space in a sexual way...and Joel did say to stop several times, and ok that might have been alongside laughter etc as well, which was all egged on by the others and the whole moment and alcohol of course ...and as you say Joel is not so forthright but the only thing that should be heard in situations like this is 'stop/don't' no matter how it's said and I'm sure it was also clearly heard by Aaron as well as the laughter was heard and also by other housemates in the room too...

..I do feel some sympathy for Aaron as well ..but I don't think there was any other decision other than to remove him and I don't think that however Joel dresses or acts by his own choice, there is any fault on his part with this ..if Aaron 'misread' anything about Joel then he misread for other reasons and factors which are nothing to do with Joel...

[Tarryn]

Did I miss something ?.
Did Aaron die ?!.
No, he was evicted because he tried to sexually assault a teenage boy. If he did this on the outside world he would be signing the Sex Offenders Register for the next 5 years.
What is Joel supposed to do ?. Not have any fun & mope ?. If he did this some of you would complain he is milking it.
Sarah is a nasty person. She had no real argument & kept accusing Joel over & over he was trying to put words in her mouth when he could not get a word in.
Sarah behaved like a nasty bitch. I'm happy she is gone.

[Denver]

Would you say to a women well you shouldnt be wearing that skirt if the same happened to her? No you wouldnt because its wrong

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by Withano

I don't understand how you made this leap personally

Because I try and put myself into everyone's shoes and try and understand both sides of the story....many people are unable to do that.
I haven't said I have anything against people dressing up in women's clothing... I haven't said at any stage said that that was the result of Aaron being kicked out.
What I said is that the cross dressing may have been mis interpreted by Aaron and he thought he could take his behaviour ito the level he did without offending him. Had Joel got angry maybe Aaron would have stopped...although we could see that he was uncomfortable his failure to leave the room, throw cushions and run to him with a play kick could have been deemed by Aaronn as Joel playing along.
I am not in anyway condoning Aaron's behaviour...it was disgusting. Some of the housemates saw it as a bit of fun...they didn't see any harm. Some understood but others didn't...so for Joel to be strutting around like a queen like Aaron did seemed a bit insensitive.