[waterhog]

Labour 'losing touch with working class' - Conor McGinn 24.05.16

　

when i was a nipper

politics did not despair

lunch time bbc2 was no skipper

its how i found tony blair.

my roots were labour

the family did imprint

all other party's gave a bad flavour

making it harder for the less well off or skint.

totally refreshing

tony made me feel equal

then it was the war that needs no guessing

it resulted in his legacy sequel.

brown took command

it pulled down the shutter

trying to tax the poorest with a doubling demand

in his loose jaw was no melting butter.

no ideas in the pipe

gone is the red rose

corbyn your anti war message is pure tripe

you have lost touch as conor mcginn dose expose.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36365284

[Livia]

I felt like Labour lost touch with the working class when it was overrun bv Islington's champagne socialists. Trouble is, it's swung back too far the other way. Labour's a mess and that's a shame for all of us. We need a strong Labour to hold back the Tories. They feel like they've no genuine opposition now.

Couldn't do the poll because there's no "they were in touch but aren't now" choice.

[joeysteele]

My Dad says the media and people have been saying this since the 1980s.

The point is,we have many different Parties now who most have crossover policies of the others in their makeup.
Political times change, as they did when Labour rose in the early 1900s and the old Liberal party started to fall away heavily.

People expect more and different things now,in my view both main parties should reach out more beyond their core support because that core support is now not going to be enough to win comfortably elections in the future.

What would now, in my opinion, wake up all Parties to connect far more with voters is a new electoral system.
Under this one,there remains the simple fact and only fact,and unrepresentative fact as to votes cast,that if people do not want a Conservative govt but do not vote labour, then a Conservative led govt is what they will get.
If they don't want a Labour govt but don't then vote Conservative then they are likely to get a Labour led govt.

Until those main Parties and one of them is the one I am in,are forced to realise neither now have any given right to govern alone and against sections of society,then little will change.
Both main Parties are to blame for losing touch,no longer do the Conservatives pick up disenchanted 'soft',(as to support), Labour voters and likewise Labour does not appeal to the disenchanted 'soft' Conservatives voters so fails to attract them too.

So for me,the problem is bigger than just losing touch,I think Labour would love to and I would like to see it too, really stand up for the people it did represent and get back in touch with them again however they would be pilloried in the media for doing so.

Because, politicians are always now looking at what the media thinks,what the outcry is as to social media now and so,as to both main Parties, we no longer really have politicians standing up for what they really believe anymore but for how the media particularly will respond to what they are saying.

He may well have won 3 elections,one very narrowly as to votes but for me really it was Tony Blair who took Labour away from its grassroots and Labour has a massive task in ever getting back to the full original core support it once had.
However the same too to the Conservatives,they were the Party near always commanding in excess of at least 40% of votes cast,they have not achieved that in near 25 years now in any elections.

Voters change and they are looking now for a lot more than before,if the main Parties sit back and lose more of that core support,the voting system will have to change, in order to satisfy the need that voters votes should be fully representative and inclusive.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

My Dad says the media and people have been saying this since the 1980s.

The point is,we have many different Parties now who most have crossover policies of the others in their makeup.
Political times change, as they did when Labour rose in the early 1900s and the old Liberal party started to fall away heavily.

People expect more and different things now,in my view both main parties should reach out more beyond their core support because that core support is now not going to be enough to win comfortably elections in the future.

What would now, in my opinion, wake up all Parties to connect far more with voters is a new electoral system.
Under this one,there remains the simple fact and only fact,and unrepresentative fact as to votes cast,that if people do not want a Conservative govt but do not vote labour, then a Conservative led govt is what they will get.
If they don't want a Labour govt but don't then vote Conservative then they are likely to get a Labour led govt.

Until those main Parties and one of them is the one I am in,are forced to realise neither now have any given right to govern alone and against sections of society,then little will change.
Both main Parties are to blame for losing touch,no longer do the Conservatives pick up disenchanted 'soft',(as to support), Labour voters and likewise Labour does not appeal to the disenchanted 'soft' Conservatives voters so fails to attract them too.

So for me,the problem is bigger than just losing touch,I think Labour would love to and i would like to see it too, really stand up for the people it did represent and get back in touch with them again however they would be pilloried in the media for doing so.

Because, politicians are always looking at what the media thinks,what the outcry is as to social media now and so,as to both main Parties, we no longer really have politicians standing up for what they really believe anymore but for how the media particularly will respond to what they are saying.

He may well have won 3 elections,one very narrowly as to votes but for me really it was Tony Blair who took Labour away from its grassroots and Labour has a massive task in ever getting back to the full original core support it once had.
However the same too to the Conservatives,they were the Party near always commanding in excess of at least 40% of votes cast,they have not achieved that in near 25 years now in any elections.

Voters change and they are looking now for a lot more than before,if the main Parties sit back and lose more of that core support,the voting system will have to change, in order to satisfy the need that voters votes should be fully representative and inclusive.

They are finished as a serious party and they will continue to shrink. eventually the nationalist parties, the lib dems and maybe ukip will keep growing and labour will simply be a party who may have a chance at a coalition. No one will ever forget the horrors of the last labour government nor the 1970s one that let the unions destroy the country. even the good stuff they tried to do was so heavy handed and over legislated that too backfired....they really were a pathetic wasteful sanctimonious warmongering bunch of dishones hypocrites...Its very sad for the UK democracy and European democracy. now all we have for a generation is dreadful elitist selfish tories.

[empire]

new labour, and now far left labour, only attract voters from ethnic backgrounds, rather than the white working class background, and you have the high education lot, who say that this class who votes for parties who want to reduce immigration, and want to protect their jobs and wages, are bigots, and you have to understand that these people don't live in areas, that suffer from both problems, and live in posh houses that are worth 800.000, if you look at working class areas in the north, where high unempolyment, wage suppression, and also suffer years of high immigration, have made it into a sectarian divide, its pro eu stance, will just turn more voters away from the party, its anti english stance, like in schools where you can't learn about are own history anymore, because it offends people, they where the ones that brought this into the stage, and corbyn and his supporters call ukip voters racist, how the hell can he get those voters back if they are hit with that, and they say that, we don't know why we are losing the working class vote, even owen jones could not get through too them about it,

[the truth]

Originally Posted by empire

new labour, and now far left labour, only attract voters from ethnic backgrounds, rather than the white working class background, and you have the high education lot, who say that this class who votes for parties who want to reduce immigration, and want to protect their jobs and wages, are bigots, and you have to understand that these people don't live in areas, that suffer from both problems, and live in posh houses that are worth 800.000, if you look at working class areas in the north, where high unempolyment, wage suppression, and also suffer years of high immigration, have made it into a sectarian divide, its pro eu stance, will just turn more voters away from the party, its anti english stance, like in schools where you can't learn about are own history anymore, because it offends people, they where the ones that brought this into the stage, and corbyn and his supporters call ukip voters racist, how the hell can he get those voters back if they are hit with that, and they say that, we don't know why we are losing the working class vote, even owen jones could not get through too them about it,

spot on but labour are living in a deluded la la land, they have learned absolutely nothing. theyre finished

[joeysteele]

I do not think Labour is finished just as in any way I could believe the Conservatives are likely to ever be either.
I include the Lib Dems there too, they will come back gradually.

I really believe myself that labour will need a new leader to get wider attention again,its base is still there in Scotland, despite the horrendous recent election results.
Once the SNP start to fail then there is only one place for the bulk of their disgruntled voters to go,back to Labour.

I think it is more wishful thinking to state that Labour is finished,however having said that,will it ever get back to really being the party it was and what it stood for pre the 1970s,that is a harder question to answer.
As much as will the Conservatives party get back to being a Party with a conscience,looking at future leadership candidates there,I doubt that.

However I repeat,until there is a change in the electoral system, the 2 main parties will still hold onto to enough votes of around 60% to 65% between them which will mean depending on how the arithmetic works out,one or the other will either scrape a narrow overall majority or be the lead in any coalitions.

Labour however is not finished and will be the lead in govt again and oddly enough if it was to tap into the mood for a more representative electoral system,it could even become the party that leads govt far more than it ever has before,due to the anti Conservative elements of near all other Parties seeking election to Westminster.

For as long as the media dictates policy and what politicians should be doing and saying,then no change of great note will come from either of the main parties.
Many Conservatives hate and know it to be wrong what has been done to the sick and disabled by their govt,yet they vote for it.
Labour does need a big shake too, to realise they need to talk to more of the people who stuck by them in the really bad years, the last time it was thought Labour was finished but in truth was nowhere near being so.

Also however,not to listen to those of the former Cabinet,like Tristram Hunt, who helped lose the last election but to reject this politics run by media scenario and get back to talking to the people.
Not just supporters but those who vote for other parties too.

There is a lot to go for and a lot to gain again for Labour,it has the people and resources to do so, with the right leader and they haven't got that yet,Labour can rebuild and become a stronger and more to the point, respected, political force again in my view.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Livia

I felt like Labour lost touch with the working class when it was overrun bv Islington's champagne socialists. Trouble is, it's swung back too far the other way. Labour's a mess and that's a shame for all of us. We need a strong Labour to hold back the Tories. They feel like they've no genuine opposition now.

Couldn't do the poll because there's no "they were in touch but aren't now" choice.

Bang On Right Livia

[joeysteele]

The real problem is that it is not just Labour's problem,all parties are losing touch with the electorate,politicians of high numbers now are likely seen as isolating themselves from voters and few really do, or even try to, understand or relate to the mass of voters in the UK.
Even less to those who are eligible to vote but don't now.
Also I think working class is an outdated terminology now anyway.

[the truth]

Corbyn has failed sadly

[Livia]

Labour's been out of touch with working class people for a long time now. Anyone see "Last Whites of the East End", a documentary on BBC 1 last night? Set in Newham, where I come from, it demonstrated very clearly for me what Labour councils have done for the working class people of the East End.

[the truth]

They say one thing and do the opposite

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Labour's been out of touch with working class people for a long time now. Anyone see "Last Whites of the East End", a documentary on BBC 1 last night? Set in Newham, where I come from, it demonstrated very clearly for me what Labour councils have done for the working class people of the East End.

Labour councils are responsible for post war immigration?
The Scarman and Macpherson reports should tell you what you need to know.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Labour councils are responsible for post war immigration?
The Scarman and Macpherson reports should tell you what you need to know.

The Mayor of Newham, Sir Robin Wales - a Scot - has said that "if people want to live in London they have to realise things change". Small comfort to the inhabitants who's families have lived in the East End for generations and watched their culture eroded by a Labour council. While they were opening cultural centres for people from all over the world, they closed the Passmore Edwards Museum, which holds the biggest collection of Bow Porcelain in the world. I know what I meant. The day I need you to educate me will be the day I fall off the perch. Thanks though...

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

The real problem is that it is not just Labour's problem,all parties are losing touch with the electorate,politicians of high numbers now are likely seen as isolating themselves from voters and few really do or even try to understand or relate to the mass of voters in the UK.
Even less to those who are eligible to vote but don't now.
Also I think working class is an outdated terminology now anyway.

Yes UKIP got 4million votes.


In USA as well Trump and Bernie
more like

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes UKIP got 4million votes.


In USA as well Trump and Bernie
more like

This time they did,in the last election,, already there are signs of slipping as to UKIPs support too.
I also do really believe that if the UK votes to stay in the EU, Farage will have had enough and UKIP without Farage is unthinkable in my view as to any real electoral success.
However even if Labour and the Conservatives were taking around only 30% of the votes each and UKIP even got 20%,that would still leave one of them the largest party,way short of an overall majority but UKIP still left with only a handful of seats under this current electoral system.

If we vote to leave, then there will be no need for UKIP afterwards,they will likely remain for a time but steadily decline too.
I also think a fair number of current UKIP voters who may stop supporting UKIP after the referendum,would then simply just not vote at all

Labour has a massive job, no doubt about it.
However writing them off now out of wishful thinking rather than fact,will lead to disappointment for those,in my view, who simply hate the left of politics and would find faults with Labour no matter what they said or who led the Party.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

The Mayor of Newham, Sir Robin Wales - a Scot - has said that "if people want to live in London they have to realise things change". Small comfort to the inhabitants who's families have lived in the East End for generations and watched their culture eroded by a Labour council. While they were opening cultural centres for people from all over the world, they closed the Passmore Edwards Museum, which holds the biggest collection of Bow Porcelain in the world. I know what I meant. The day I need you to educate me will be the day I fall off the perch. Thanks though...

You're welcome, multiculturalism is not a recent Labour construct it is a result of decades of governmental change and globalisation.
Nothing is certain but change this is what happens over time communities fragment, this societal dispersion is the result of Structural functionalism.

Local government funding has been eroded by cuts from central government, something has to give and to maintain front line services that may have been included in the cuts which had to be made. We are in a state of austerity remember, the cultural centres may have been able to draw on other funding, donations or sponsorship.