[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm kind of on the fence with this one, I've read most of the posts in here and I agree with some of both sides tbh. Whilst I wouldn't like to dictate to anyone what they should or shouldn't wear, I do also agree that alot of this religious attire (mainly the ones that cover the face etc) are oppressive to women and so for that reason i probably wouldn't wear a head scarf or whatever as protest to something I actually think is draconian. I mean I'm not going to try and force people not to wear them either but I'm not going to support something I think is outdated, i wouldn't protest for any religious stuff really because I think the world would be a better place with religions

Obviously I'm not going to agree totally with the last bit, but on the whole... I agree with this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Obviously I'm not going to agree totally with the last bit, but on the whole... I agree with this.

I know, you can't stop people believing what they want but it should be kept away from state and having any kind of impact on everyday life - work, school, laws etc

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know, you can't stop people believing what they want but it should be kept away from state and having any kind of impact on everyday life - work, school, laws etc

Oh God, I'm having an agree-fest with you today x

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Oh God, I'm having an agree-fest with you today x

haha, thank god for that......pardon the pun

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

haha, thank god for that......pardon the pun

God doesn't mind you blaspheming. She's a very tolerent woman.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm not being funny, I think it's a great idea. I remember once when there was a planned event for people to wear purple in solidarity with all the gay suicides that happened that year (can't remember which year, but it was a devastating new high, 2010ish I think). And everywhere you went that day, there were people in purple, it was kind of beautiful. Wouldn't really have the same effect if it was one guy wearing purple.. it would need to be a planned event.. and no, no law that suggests it should only be women.. from personal experience, I've seen plenty of Muslim men in Tunisia, Saudi, and Iraq wear headscarves

Men in Iran also wore headscarves in a planned event to show solidarity with their wives, which is also kinda beautiful in my opinion
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-a7160146.html

That was an interesting article as well. I admire the men and women who stand up to this kind of oppression.

I doubt it had any effect though - to fight that type of injustice takes years of sustained campaigning. I hope it wasn't a one-offf and that those men and others continue to fight the good fight along with the women.

[Livia]

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM

Spoiler:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/jo...FdTNGwodEfkDqg

or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram

Spoiler:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...use-hrw-report

or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves

Spoiler:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7670276.html

Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islam

Spoiler:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...-homosexuality

I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Livia

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM

Spoiler:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/jo...FdTNGwodEfkDqg

or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram

Spoiler:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...use-hrw-report

or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves

Spoiler:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7670276.html

Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islam

Spoiler:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...-homosexuality

I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing of any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something. Even if those forced to are in the minority, and I have my doubts about that, I think that the minorities' right not to be abused in this way in the West should take precedence over the rights of those that choose to wear them. Why don't those women care about their own I have to ask myself.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Livia

If we're fighting for justice for women, I say we step away from the issue of headscarves and concentrate on FGM

Spoiler:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/giving/jo...FdTNGwodEfkDqg

or the extreme cruelty of Boko Haram

Spoiler:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...use-hrw-report

or the fact that IS and other groups are taking women prisoners and then selling them as sex slaves

Spoiler:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7670276.html

Or perhaps we should focus on the way gays are treated in Islam

Spoiler:

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...-homosexuality

I'd say they're all a little more serious than whether or not a woman covers her head and they're the tip of the iceburg when it comes to cruelty and oppression.

Excellent point.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I completely agree. I think it pretty obvious, and downright telling, that of all the oppression in the world the largest proportion of victims are women - which athough occurs in varying degrees - amounts to the same and needs to be addressed on a worldwide basis.

Obviously the examples you give there should get priority but I think in attempting to address the mindset of such religions in the West such as banning face veils in public gives out the message to women, and hopefully men, that women have intelligence, free thought and rights. They are not cattle.

I feel that by allowing the wearing or any kind of female garment that can be used to oppress women in the West gives out the wrong message as well as allows men to continue to control and oppress women in the West. For those that are forced to wear them here they must be silently screaming for the West to do something.

Certainly a lot more should be done to address the issues in those articles but I guess it is difficult to address them in other parts of the world. Here we can, starting with such things as face veils in my opinion.

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I kind of agree with your post but I think telling women what they can and can't wear (unless for security reasons) is the wrong way to go about it. It's pretty much doing what their religion/husbands etc etc is doing to them. I think just living in the West and having the law backing women and their rights should help them in making a decision themselves on whether they want to stay living this way or not, it may take a generation or more but atleast it will be a choice they came to themselves and that's the best way to do it I think.

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I do get where you're coming and don't disagree with that in principle but can't help feeling that we are complicit in the oppression by allowing it to carry on 'under our roofs'.

I come back to things like adopting and respecting the values of the country you choose to live in and the wearing of niqabs and Burkhas definitely does not Do this.

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think the only way you can help people who are oppressed is by giving them another option that's fully backed by the law and give them support should they choose to break away from family/religion etc It's not healthy to decide for a woman that her clothes are wrong and a symbol of oppression and then oppress her in the same way by telling her what she can and cannot wear.

Ugh I can't word what i want to say very well, what I mean is, she will never be really free from oppression unless she can make these kind of choices herself

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

So men need to butt out and just let women dress how they want,a lot of women are conditioned from birth in certain countries that the male is the more supreme of the species and they have to be subservient.plus I do think when you decide to live in a different country and culture you should have the decency to at least live by their rules and respect their traditions.we are tole that when we visit some countries not to wear certain clothes and cover up which most of us comply with.we are just saying that in the UK most of us don't think the burka(full head covering) is not needed or wanted.

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I understand what you're saying but banning certain items of clothing (except for security reasons) is making "us" as "bad as them" Yes i believe oppressive clothing like the Burka are there to keep women under control but the way to change that is not to force women to take them off when they're probably not psychologically ready to do that instead to give them the choice to do so if they want to that they may not have in stricter Muslim countries.

But legally they already have the choice not to wear it

The only way to stop them being forced to wear it is to ban it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

But legally they already have the choice not to wear it

The only way to stop them being forced to wear it is to ban it.

I know that and they choose to wear it, maybe in a generation or so, women will be able to free themselves of it after living with other women in this society.

Your solution is to force them to stop wearing it, same thing as being forced to wear something.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know that and they choose to wear it, maybe in a generation or so, women will be able to free themselves of it after living with other women in this society.

Your solution is to force them to stop wearing it, same thing as being forced to wear something.

I'd tell em they can wear at home,in the garden or in bed with the hubby if that's what floats their boat.Just not out in public.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I'd tell em they can wear at home,in the garden or in bed with the hubby if that's what floats their boat.Just not out in public.

The kind of defeats the purpose of the whole idea of it

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The kind of defeats the purpose of the whole idea of it

Idk,I've often thought about getting one for the misses for the bedroom so I don't have see her mug while I'm on the job.Real passion killer

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Idk,I've often thought about getting one for the misses for the bedroom so I don't have see her mug while I'm on the job.Real passion killer

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Northern Monkey! I hope she doesn't read this forum

She has got nice eyes though

[Tozzie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

"if this real and rampant Islamaphobia continues, there will come a day where we must ask all women to wear a headscarf – all – out of solidarity to those who do it for religious reasons."

Ask. ASK. Not force. He is talking about ASKING women to VOLUNTARILY wear a headscarf out of solidarity with women who do so for religious reasons, if there comes a day when they are to be "banned". He is not talking about forcing anyone to do anything. Because he also specifically says;

"It is every woman’s right to always dress how she wants, that is my opinion on the matter,” he told an audience of school pupils."


A valiant effort to twist something into fearful propaganda though Brillo. Shame that DR ruined it for you by actually linking to the source material you cherry picked out of context comments from.

but why ASK them to. Why are muslims always mollycoddled and treat as superior people. Why is it ok for us to be offended but we must not offend them? This country bows down to Muslims enough, we go out of our way to make them happy but if we are unhappy and say something against them we get shot down.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Tozzie

but why ASK them to. Why are muslims always mollycoddled and treat as superior people. Why is it ok for us to be offended but we must not offend them? This country bows down to Muslims enough, we go out of our way to make them happy but if we are unhappy and say something against them we get shot down.

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

[Tozzie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

They're not treated as superior, they're being demonised and he's asking for them to be treated as equals/fellow human beings.

As I see it they are treated as superior. It wouldn't surprise me if many muslims, especially women wish that PC brigade wouldnt make such an issue of the muslim people because it is this that is causing bad feeling. I have nothing against muslim people just the fact that we must not offend muslims is thrown down our throats. We are walking on eggshells the whole time for fear of offending. Everyone at some time in their life has been offended, we just have to get over it and stop crying about it.