[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Marches

Feminism has a far bigger following than the other two and it’s considered the ‘cool’ thing to be. A lot of young people, including myself, have had the term shoved down my throat before as THE equality movement. It seems bizarre why feminism instead of something that campaignes for equality of all people

Also fundraising for said shelters is really hard because a lot of people simply think it’s black and white as only men abuse women and it doesn’t happen the other way around and that the few cases are anomalies.

Since when?!

I have never ever heard anyone say that only men abuse women. Its much much more common (especially to a level where a shelter would be required in the first place), but to say it never happens the other way around is just ridiculous Even if a few people do think that, there is nothing stopping people from fundraising for male only shelters (if they don't exist already).

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

See this is actually what I understand feminism to be I know many do say its about equality for both sexes, but I understand it to be addressing womens rights/issues, to eventually achieve equality with men. So yes, its about equality as an endgame, but the way to get there is to address womens rights.

If that makes sense.

But the suggestion that equality can be achieved by addressing only women's rights is a gross oversimplification... To the extent that the two are, in my opinion, barely related. They're both valuable causes, sure, but entirely separate... In fact, trying to ensure equality is respected whilst trying to tackle women's rights issues specifically is hugely difficult, AND trying to address equality issues whilst keeping the focus squarely on women's rights is near impossible. In both cases, it's needlessly tying one arm behind our backs, and to be frank, there's a reason that it quite blatantly isn't really working as a combined cause. Is there anyone who can say with a straight face that it's currently effective? It's a bar brawl.

[Vicky.]

So again, what would be effective? Should we just do nothing at all while women are still treat like crap..

Of course not all mens lives are totally rosy either, but it really is mainly women who receive the ****ty end of the stick.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

So again, what would be effective? Should we just do nothing at all while women are still treat like crap..

Of course not all mens lives are totally rosy either, but it really is mainly women who receive the ****ty end of the stick.

No, there are plenty of issues facing women still, especially globally, that need to be tackled for what they are, and by all means call that movement feminism, though I personally think the term itself is permanently damaged.

When it comes to the actual pursuit of equality, though, feminism monopolies the narrative in destructive ways and that's what needs to end. The idea that the path to equality lies solely in female empowerment is fundamentally flawed. In fact the idea that any equality battle is limited to "imbalances between the sexes" is hugely short sighted... There are huge amounts of oppression in our society, massive inequalities across the board, and yes maybe a lot of those "at the top of the pile" happen to be men but that misses the point by a country mile. Real inequality has absolutely nothing to do with penises and vaginas, its all just a distraction.

[Withano]

Lets be serious, the issue is people confusing feminists with misandrists, and misandrists confusing their views for feminism. Take those idiots out of the equation, and feminism (its real meaning) is an essential part of the 21st century.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

Lets be serious, the issue is people confusing feminists with misandrists, and misandrists confusing their views for feminism. Take those idiots out of the equation, and feminism (its real meaning) is an essential part of the 21st century.

Its misandrists confusing their views for feminism, calling their views feminism, being recognised by others as misandrists who call themselves feminists, and other non-misandrist feminists flat out refusing to accept that there are many feminists who are misandrists. "Those aren't real feminists tho" is nothing more than a head planted firmly in the sand.

You CANNOT untangle the two at this point, it's an impossible task. The real meaning of feminism was an essential part of the 20th century, the 21st century needs to develop a more modern, nuanced and inclusive drive for equality that separates itself from that or it will simply fail.

Or doggedly cling to the current rhetoric and continue to engage in confused, scrappy skirmishes forever I guess, because the mantras must be protected at all costs. That's bound to result in some really positive outcomes.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Its misandrists confusing their views for feminism, calling their views feminism, being recognised by others as misandrists who call themselves feminists, and other non-misandrist feminists flat out refusing to accept that there are many feminists who are misandrists. "Those aren't real feminists tho" is nothing more than a head planted firmly in the sand.

You CANNOT untangle the two at this point, it's an impossible task. The real meaning of feminism was an essential part of the 20th century, the 21st century needs to develop a more modern, nuanced and inclusive drive for equality that separates itself from that or it will simply fail.

Or doggedly cling to the current rhetoric and continue to engage in confused, scrappy skirmishes forever I guess, because the mantras must be protected at all costs. That's bound to result in some really positive outcomes.

I can misandrists and feminists are different things in my head, those that think otherwise are idiots. I have that **** covered.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

I can misandrists and feminists are different things in my head, those that think otherwise are idiots. I have that **** covered.

You can untangle it in your head, sure. I'm sure if you really tried you could even untangle it in a few other people's heads. But you can't untangle it from the direction of the movement itself, certainly not faster than its falling apart.

I have to go back to the "preaching to the choir" part here. If the only people who are listening to "real feminist rhetoric" are people who are *already* "real feminists"... Then it isnt worth anything. At all. Unless you are particularly fond of a good circlejerk.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You can untangle it in your head, sure. I'm sure if you really tried you could even untangle it in a few other people's heads. But you can't untangle it from the direction of the movement itself, certainly not faster than its falling apart.

I have to go back to the "preaching to the choir" part here. If the only people who are listening to "real feminist rhetoric" are people who are *already* "real feminists"... Then it isnt worth anything. At all. Unless you are particularly fond of a good circlejerk.

But if I can untangle it in my head, and you can untangle it in your head, and others can untangle it in their head... all thats left are the idiots who are confusing a feminist for a misandrist..

Ignoring the people discussing something they know nothing about is a much easier solution to the issue you think you have surely.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

But if I can untangle it in my head, and you can untangle it in your head, and others can untangle it in their head... all thats left are the idiots who are confusing a feminist for a misandrist..

Ignoring the people discussing something they know nothing about is a much easier solution to the issue you think you have surely.

Not if the primary group confusing misandry for feminism are self-titled feminists and increasing in number at a rapid pace. Its not a small group. Its rapidly becoming the distinct majority.

It also ignores the fact that trying to achieve equality under a banner that is fundamentally unequal is completely flawed logically to the extent that I don't think it's even feasible.

[Marches]

Equality still has a far way to go for both women and men. Just puzzles me why the two are separated into different movements, one of which has like 100000x the following and both of them hating each other. It won’t ultimately achieve equality

[Marches]

I’m also just sick and tired of these movements holding a monopoly on the idea of equality and the victim complexes it has spawned it’s not productive whatsoever

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But the suggestion that equality can be achieved by addressing only women's rights is a gross oversimplification... To the extent that the two are, in my opinion, barely related. They're both valuable causes, sure, but entirely separate... In fact, trying to ensure equality is respected whilst trying to tackle women's rights issues specifically is hugely difficult, AND trying to address equality issues whilst keeping the focus squarely on women's rights is near impossible. In both cases, it's needlessly tying one arm behind our backs, and to be frank, there's a reason that it quite blatantly isn't really working as a combined cause. Is there anyone who can say with a straight face that it's currently effective? It's a bar brawl.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, there are plenty of issues facing women still, especially globally, that need to be tackled for what they are, and by all means call that movement feminism, though I personally think the term itself is permanently damaged.

When it comes to the actual pursuit of equality, though, feminism monopolies the narrative in destructive ways and that's what needs to end. The idea that the path to equality lies solely in female empowerment is fundamentally flawed. In fact the idea that any equality battle is limited to "imbalances between the sexes" is hugely short sighted... There are huge amounts of oppression in our society, massive inequalities across the board, and yes maybe a lot of those "at the top of the pile" happen to be men but that misses the point by a country mile. Real inequality has absolutely nothing to do with penises and vaginas, its all just a distraction.

..that’s the thing, your first post...it’s almost like we have to look at feminism and equalism as two separate things which are being striven for, even though feminism is about equalism and equalism is feminism...it all feels as though it’s becoming quite blurred and hazy, in keeping a female perspective in feminism...and that’s sad, that’s wrong but it’s strange how things can start to feel as though their positives values and intentions are being perceived as more negatives...this is not a man v woman thing, not a battle of the sexes in any way, it’s an all on board thing because how could anybody not want equality in humans in society...?...and if the term feminism has suffered permanent damage, as you fear...then the striving to ‘reclaim’ it, as it were...would take too much time, which hinders the progress whilst that’s been focused on.../..that reclaiming process and turning it back to the positive necessity that it was meant to be, kind of sets it all back a bit, which is very frustrating...

[Toy Soldier]

That's the thing though, even when it speaks of equality, feminism is about seeking equality from a female-lead perspective which is an oxymoron in itself. It isn't possible. You can seek empowerment from a female-lead perspective, trying to address imbalances on that side, and that MIGHT lead to equilibrium in the process... But you can only "seek equality" from an equal perspective.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's the thing though, even when it speaks of equality, feminism is about seeking equality from a female-lead perspective which is an oxymoron in itself. It isn't possible. You can seek empowerment from a female-lead perspective, trying to address imbalances on that side, and that MIGHT lead to equilibrium in the process... But you can only "seek equality" from an equal perspective.

..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...

Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?

Because they get no support from anyone

You can sit here saying feminists would but they don’t and most of the public wouldn’t either because the media makes men out to be these sinister beings that can’t be trusted and have everything peachy. People often LAUGH when male abuse is brought up as if it’s unfathomable

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...

This is all entirely based on the idea that there are "two entities" seeking (or not seeking) equality, though. A hive mind of females and a hive mind of males.

How is it even feasible to achieve individual equality if the very process for doing so involves dividing us into our collective "camps"? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever? You can't overcome division by not only following the status quo OF division... But actually encouraging or even insisting on it.

"Men should be the ones to ______"
"Women should be the ones to ______"

This is the language OF division, of sexism. And yet, somehow, accepting that "Women should be the ones to lead the way with equality issues" is supposedly part of the solution?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Marches

Because they get no support from anyone

You can sit here saying feminists would but they don’t and most of the public wouldn’t either because the media makes men out to be these sinister beings that can’t be trusted and have everything peachy. People often LAUGH when male abuse is brought up as if it’s unfathomable

People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?

My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").

These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.

It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.

I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.

Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common . Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?

I remember seeing a clip from an american talk show where the subject was brought up and the panel and audience were all laughing... and then later on one of them gave an apology and they all started laughing during that too

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").

These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.

It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.

I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.

Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common . Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.

FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not

But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with

[Jords]

annoying

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I remember seeing a clip from an american talk show where the subject was brought up and the panel and audience were all laughing... and then later on one of them gave an apology and they all started laughing during that too

If a man is brutally attacks by a woman, bruises the lot then there's some seriousness but you always get idiots saying the man is a "wimp" or should "walk away from her & man up " .

There's always that daft macho mentality ,where they think men should be strong all the time and not affected by anything .

Some think it's funny if a man gets slapped across the face by a woman and they assume he deserved it or they find it amusing still . Double standards.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not

But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with

Men are fighting for them, in numbers that pale in comparison to the following feminism has. I’ve actually been to a men’s rights activism gathering before and it got a turn out of like 10 people. I’ve seen some online too and the numbers are similar, while felimisn protests, women’s march ect get thousand of participants. There are millions of feminism supporters in the western world. Female celebrities often get humiliated and attacked online for not identifying as feminists. It’s hard to do anything when 99.9% of the world either doesn’t care or is aiding the mentality that women ARE the victims. It’s just stupid that the word equality has been hijacked by a movement that only focuses on women, when both sexes in the western world deal with a lot of ****