[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I've never seen a case yet where someone's taken to court for being flirtatious

There's loads of historical allegations of "sexual harassment" that only come out the woodwork now .

I didn't say they all get taken to court , but what i'm saying is there's women who will now say years ago they were "sexually harassed" if a guy tried to seduce them , even though they told him NO and that was the end of it .

If the guy continues to pester the woman then fair enough it's sexual harassment . On a night out clubbing both men & women approach eachother for sex .

[jet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

No I don't.

I think Kizzy is pointing out some hypocrisy here.
That Cox has said he has overstepped the mark but he has also strenuously denied, more serious allegations.
While some others who were forced to leave their positions on the other political side,who got nothing like the acidic comments Cox is getting.
Yet they are still denying doing anything wrong.

It is not actually my place or yours in fact,to talk about other members to another member.
You have chosen so to do with me so I trust Kizzy will now not mind when I clearly state,I think for her views,the vitriol she gets here when she posts,is beyond a joke now.

If one continuously defends and makes excuses for unsavoury characters, then comeback should be expected and taken on the chin.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by jet

If one continuously defends and makes excuses for unsavoury characters, then comeback should be expected and taken on the chin.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by jet

If one continuously defends and makes excuses for unsavoury characters, then comeback should be expected and taken on the chin.

Yeah pretty much this .
And even if you play devil's Advocate Brendan still left the charity so clearly something happened he's NOT PROUD OF hence he still did something wrong .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

There's loads of historical allegations of "sexual harassment" that only come out the woodwork now .

I didn't say they all get taken to court , but what i'm saying is there's women who will now say years ago they were "sexually harassed" if a guy tried to seduce them , even though they told him NO and that was the end of it .

If the guy continues to pester the woman then fair enough it's sexual harassment . On a night out clubbing both men & women approach eachother for sex .

Depends what you mean by seduce, tbh. Flirting and asking someone out is fine. 'Seducing' by randomly grabbing their tit or telling them you would 'smash their backdoors in' whilst you have them cornered and unable to back away or other such rubbish...not fine.

So much gross behaviour is normalized. It can be a bit of a shock to actually think back over it. Throughout my adult life I have had perverts randomly touching me intimately a LOT of times, and I am pretty average looking too so I dread to think what goodlooking people get.

I would obviously not report stuff such as a guy rubbing his hardon on me 15 years back, but this does not mean I was any less sexually assaulted He could argue that it was a seduction technique too..I guess. And no doubt would, while people make excuses for such behaviour and say its nothing...and that people talking about stuff like this makes 'genuine' victims be taken less seriously, or whatever.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

There's loads of historical allegations of "sexual harassment" that only come out the woodwork now .

I didn't say they all get taken to court , but what i'm saying is there's women who will now say years ago they were "sexually harassed" if a guy tried to seduce them , even though they told him NO and that was the end of it .

If the guy continues to pester the woman then fair enough it's sexual harassment . On a night out clubbing both men & women approach eachother for sex .

I get what you’re saying.With the Westminster stuff there was apparently a list of MP’s who had supposedly sexually harassed and assaulted people but there was stuff like knee touching and asking a woman out to the cinema by text getting conflated with the more serious assaults.Every man accused of any of it may aswell have been a rapist.

The problem with all this MeToo stuff is weeding out the serious crimes from the bull**** and the real ones from the false.It turned into a real witch hunt with people losing jobs for minor stuff and also an MP committing suicide.

This charity stuff seems like much of it is more serious though like the Hollywood Weinstein scandal.
With this Brendan Cox who knows if he just overstepped the mark a little and was too pushy or actually assaulted women.I suppose the courts will have to determine that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I get what you’re saying.With the Westminster stuff there was apparently a list of MP’s who had supposedly sexually harassed and assaulted people but there was stuff like knee touching and asking a woman out to the cinema by text getting conflated with the more serious assaults.

Yeah that list was quite ridiculous. Some of the people on it had simply had affairs ffs. Thats not sexual harassment, its a consenting relationship between two adults. yes it may be 'immoral' or whatever in some peoples eyes, but its not actually illegal

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Depends what you mean by seduce, tbh. Flirting and asking someone out is fine. 'Seducing' by randomly grabbing their tit or telling them you would 'smash their backdoors in' whilst you have them cornered and unable to back away or other such rubbish...not fine.

So much gross behaviour is normalized. It can be a bit of a shock to actually think back over it. Throughout my adult life I have had perverts randomly touching me intimately a LOT of times, and I am pretty average looking too so I dread to think what goodlooking people get.

I would obviously not report stuff such as a guy rubbing his hardon on me 15 years back, but this does not mean I was any less sexually assaulted He could argue that it was a seduction technique too..I guess. And no doubt would, while people make excuses for such behaviour and say its nothing...and that people talking about stuff like this makes 'genuine' victims be taken less seriously, or whatever.

Yeah i used to get that stuff alot from women back in the partying days.Crotch getting grabbed and squeezed,arse getting grabbed regularly.They’d come in the blokes toilets and look at your D while you were pissing or even try and ‘hold it for you’.
Never really thought of it as getting assaulted back then.Was worst when it’s an older woman and you’re only 17 at the time.
Seems like it was kind of normalised then.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Depends what you mean by seduce, tbh. Flirting and asking someone out is fine. 'Seducing' by randomly grabbing their tit or telling them you would 'smash their backdoors in' whilst you have them cornered and unable to back away or other such rubbish...not fine.

So much gross behaviour is normalized. It can be a bit of a shock to actually think back over it. Throughout my adult life I have had perverts randomly touching me intimately a LOT of times, and I am pretty average looking too so I dread to think what goodlooking people get.

I would obviously not report stuff such as a guy rubbing his hardon on me 15 years back, but this does not mean I was any less sexually assaulted He could argue that it was a seduction technique too..I guess. And no doubt would, while people make excuses for such behaviour and say its nothing...and that people talking about stuff like this makes 'genuine' victims be taken less seriously, or whatever.

Ok maybe i didn't make myself clear enough Vicky , by seduce i meant for e.g if you're in a bar and a random guy asks if you want to sleep with him or he uses a dirty chat up line or something .
Plenty of women who aren't interested would either laugh out of disbelief or as a defence mechanism and walk away from him , or would tell him "in your dreams" kind of style and tell him to F OFF basically .

I think we all know if ANYONE randomly grabs a stranger sexually /inappropriately without their permission out the blue then it's sexual assault/harassment .
Looks have nothing to do with it , alcohol can play a part in it or the person might just be an arrogant predator who thinks he/ she can have anyone they want .

What you experienced sounds vulgar and i would 100 % understand that being reported or the guy getting slapped across the face .
Anything that physical and uncomfortable is wrong.


But the problem we have today is if a guy said something rude to any of us years ago or as a joke , people now pipe up and say we were sexually harassed . When really we just ignored it or carried on with our lives .
I feel like it's diluting genuine abuse and harassment that probably goes unreported . I know abuse still get's reported though .

A man forcing himself on you or grabbing you isn't the same as asking you back to his hotel room and you declining and him walking away it just isn't the same .

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah i used to get that stuff alot from women back in the partying days.Crotch getting grabbed and squeezed,arse getting grabbed regularly.They’d come in the blokes toilets and look at your D while you were pissing or even try and ‘hold it for you’.
Never really thought of it as getting assaulted back then.Was worst when it’s an older woman and you’re only 17 at the time.
Seems like it was kind of normalised then.

Clubs are ****ing horrendous. I never thought much of it, as I say..back when I was going to them as it was pretty much assumed that you would be groped and it was part and parcel of going out.

It seems to be changing now, luckily. Though there is resistance to the change. Generally from the perverts in the first place who will insist that they are doing nothing wrong and its just 'banter' or whatever.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

But the problem we have today is if a guy said something rude to any of us years ago or as a joke , people now pipe up and say we were sexually harassed . When really we just ignored it or carried on with our lives .
I feel like it's diluting genuine abuse and harassment that probably goes unreported . I know abuse still get's reported though .

A man forcing himself on you or grabbing you isn't the same as asking you back to his hotel room and you declining and him walking away it just isn't the same .

Which people?

I read hundreds and hundreds of the metoo things and not one was about someone telling a dirty joke.

Also all the times I was actually sexually assaulted, and when I was actually raped also, I ignored it (as much as I could) and just carried on with my life.

Honestly, this 'you cannot even tell a girl she is pretty anymore', or 'we need a written contract before having sex' type outrage is just silly stuff stirred up by the likes of the daily mail. Asking someone out is not sexual harassment. Repeatedly doing so, or making lewd comments when you know the person is uncomfortable, is.

I don't see how talking about 'low level' harassment/assault dilutes cases of worse assault/harassment either. And I would actually say, the more people talk about their own bad experiences, the more victims may come forward, as they realise they are not alone.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Which people?

I read hundreds and hundreds of the metoo things and not one was about someone telling a dirty joke.

Also all the times I was actually sexually assaulted, and when I was actually raped also, I ignored it (as much as I could) and just carried on with my life.

Honestly, this 'you cannot even tell a girl she is pretty anymore', or 'we need a written contract before having sex' type outrage is just silly stuff stirred up by the likes of the daily mail. Asking someone out is not sexual harassment. Repeatedly doing so, or making lewd comments when you know the person is uncomfortable, is.

I don't see how talking about 'low level' harassment/assault dilutes cases of worse assault/harassment either. And I would actually say, the more people talk about their own bad experiences, the more victims may come forward, as they realise they are not alone.

I'm not taking away the fact that genuine abuse is out there , i'm just saying now when someone says they've been "sexually harassed" it can be anything from a rude comment to asking them back to their place . It's not as clear cut as just someone grabbing you or forcing themselves on you.

What you experienced is assault there's no question about it .

What Northern Monkey said about the happenings in clubs doesn't surprise me 1 bit , i even watched a documentary about 2 toilet attendants in a London night club and this drunken woman kept walking into the men's toilet and the toilet attendant kept telling her to leave as she shouldn't be there and she kept ignoring him.

Other way round if a man kept wondering into the female toilets he'd get screamed at , slapped or kicked out the club/reported .

Yes it's good to raise awareness of sexual abuse etc , but i think the message get's lost when people who got asked out by someone they find unattractive now is considered "harassment" .

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

I get what you’re saying.With the Westminster stuff there was apparently a list of MP’s who had supposedly sexually harassed and assaulted people but there was stuff like knee touching and asking a woman out to the cinema by text getting conflated with the more serious assaults.Every man accused of any of it may aswell have been a rapist.

The problem with all this MeToo stuff is weeding out the serious crimes from the bull**** and the real ones from the false.It turned into a real witch hunt with people losing jobs for minor stuff and also an MP committing suicide.

This charity stuff seems like much of it is more serious though like the Hollywood Weinstein scandal.
With this Brendan Cox who knows if he just overstepped the mark a little and was too pushy or actually assaulted women.I suppose the courts will have to determine that.

Thankyou!! this is exactly what i've been saying .
It's become ridiculous , and sadly real crimes will be either missed or just treated as "ohhh here we go another allegation" .

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Maybe your explanation is flawed as quite a few people are bewildered by your bizarre stance?

Is this you saying I'm wrong because JUST because I don't think the same as other people... LOL

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

So Kizzy do you want a full confession by Brendan on tape ?? .
maybe he has admitted to loads of things but outside the media .

No. that was a post about trump, you are just further confusing yourself now. That had nothing to do with this situation whatsoever.
All these buts and maybes are pointless.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Whats the point, your biased opinion would be the same, pure and simply for his labour connection.

That's your opinion, I disagree.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

You really don't think Kizzy is making excuses for his behaviour?

I haven't seen a single comment casting aspersions at his wife, other than to say that when she was murdered she didn't suddenly become a saint, which is factually correct unless you know otherwise?

What behaviour?... I'm attempting to maintain some perspective here is all.

The guy is being demonised here ...for what?

Joey is referring to a silly trolling comment at the beginning of the thread in relation to Jo Cox I think.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Clubs are ****ing horrendous. I never thought much of it, as I say..back when I was going to them as it was pretty much assumed that you would be groped and it was part and parcel of going out.

It seems to be changing now, luckily. Though there is resistance to the change. Generally from the perverts in the first place who will insist that they are doing nothing wrong and its just 'banter' or whatever.

Yeah.I think this is one reason it irks me when i see men getting all the blame and pretty much demonised.The hypocrisy of it.
Logically you’d think men were much worse due to testosterone but from what I remember the women were just as bad.
Obviously generally men are bigger and stronger but that doesn’t mean women aren’t just as bad.
The charity stuff i can believe it was men taking advantage of vulnerable females and it looks bad.Also Yes Weinstein was obviously a nasty bastard.
I just think it’s gone too far with women being seen as whiter than white and men are natural born predators etc.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Thankyou!! this is exactly what i've been saying .
It's become ridiculous , and sadly real crimes will be either missed or just treated as "ohhh here we go another allegation" .

Yeah that is the danger of all this stuff getting conflated.It will dilute real predatory behaviour.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by jet

If one continuously defends and makes excuses for unsavoury characters, then comeback should be expected and taken on the chin.

Have you maybe a contribution to the issue of the thread re Cox and his situation.
Or are you just joining others in a roll against a particular member.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

Thankyou!! this is exactly what i've been saying .
It's become ridiculous , and sadly real crimes will be either missed or just treated as "ohhh here we go another allegation" .

Isn't that exactly what has happened here? ... It's a witch hunt as there is no evidence or statement to suggest he did anything and yet as NM says here we are ruining the guys life as well as his charity.

I noted too after vickys heartfelt confession that she too has been a victim of some pretty disgusting serious abuse the canned response from you was ...it happens to men too!
Aside from the 'westminster stuff' the 'inappropriate touching' of knees and such it's not so serious if form an MP as a charity employee then... do we have a sliding scale of who is deemed capable of inappropriate behaviour, and the palaces of westminster don't have a HR department anyway?

Should this Knee touching be a reference to Damian Green and Kate Maltby please be aware he is as I stated earlier refusing to acknowledge what he did, and to be clear that is NOT why he lost his job that was for breaking the ministerial code for a totally unrelated issue.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yeah.I think this is one reason it irks me when i see men getting all the blame and pretty much demonised.The hypocrisy of it.
Logically you’d think men were much worse due to testosterone but from what I remember the women were just as bad.
Obviously generally men are bigger and stronger but that doesn’t mean women aren’t just as bad.
The charity stuff i can believe it was men taking advantage of vulnerable females and it looks bad.Also Yes Weinstein was obviously a nasty bastard.
I just think it’s gone too far with women being seen as whiter than white and men are natural born predators etc.

Didn't they even release a movie recently at the cinema's of a older woman having relationships with young guys. If it was about an older man with younger girls people would call it predatory .

It's called film stars don't die in Liverpool , i've never heard of the actress the story is about but i read something that described her as a female woody allen as she apparently took the virginity of her step son

I read a review online where they thought it was bad timing because of the whole harvey weinstein scandal .


You won't get men reporting sexual harassment from women , some men are even too embarrassed to report harassment from other men . I hate hypocrisy aswell .

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Isn't that exactly what has happened here? ... It's a witch hunt as there is no evidence or statement to suggest he did anything and yet as NM says here we are ruining the guys life as well as his charity.

I noted too after vickys heartfelt confession that she too has been a victim of some pretty disgusting serious abuse the canned response from you was ...it happens to men too!
Aside from the 'westminster stuff' the 'inappropriate touching' of knees and such it's not so serious if form an MP as a charity employee then... do we have a sliding scale of who is deemed capable of inappropriate behaviour, and the palaces of westminster don't have a HR department anyway?

Should this Knee touching be a reference to Damian Green and Kate Maltby please be aware he is as I stated earlier refusing to acknowledge what he did, and to be clear that is NOT why he lost his job that was for breaking the ministerial code for a totally unrelated issue.

What on earth are you trying to say exactly???, i told Vicky twice that what she experienced is 100 % sexual assault! and i called it vulgar aswell . I never once downplayed her distress or terrible experience .

Abuse is abuse and harassment is harassment whether at the hands of a man or woman .

[Kizzy]

Haha I love how this thread has flipped... Oh boo hoo us poor men!!!! hahahaha

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

What on earth are you trying to say exactly???, i told Vicky twice that what she experienced is 100 % sexual assault! and i called it vulgar aswell . I never once downplayed her distress or terrible experience .

Abuse is abuse and harassment is harassment whether at the hands of a man or woman .

I'm just telling you how it looked to me, it looked and still looks like there is the suggestion that abuse is an equal 2 way street.

It isn't, female on male abuse exists, nobody has suggested it doesn't but I'm sorry there is no comparison. I just want to make that screamingly obvious.