[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

That's May all over though NM... And frankly, most of our current politicians - immediately do what you think will make you most popular with the voting public, no matter what that is, and then worry about the specifics and potential repercussions later. Because UK politics (and media) has descended entirely into petty in fighting and childish squabbling.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That's May all over though NM... And frankly, most of our current politicians - immediately do what you think will make you most popular with the voting public, no matter what that is, and then worry about the specifics and potential repercussions later. Because UK politics (and media) has descended entirely into petty in fighting and childish squabbling.

Yep it’s a joke but an unfunny one when **** gets this serious.
I actually heard someone on a politics show the other day saying how this might be good for May’s image.Like that’s the main thing at stake here

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

Good points, especially the one in bold.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses

Oh i know.They have a track record for this stuff.But if there’s any possibility that it wasn’t the Russian government this time and someone trying to create a diplomatic crisis(And even the PM’s speech didn’t say they know 100%) then shouldn’t we maybe look into it a little deeper before jumping the gun.Atleast wait for the investigation to get abit further.

[Kizzy]

Youtube video

[waterhog]

I feel better after reading all these comments. its not only me that has to look over shoulder with putin.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Corbyn is 100% to blame for that. If he had supported the government, which is the norm on occasions like this, no matter who is in power, there would be no issue. Corbyn decided to be an idiot and try and point score.

As others have said already - you have 'Hit The Nail Squarely On The Head'.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

Military grade nerve agents are not something that can be cobbled together from items found down the local supermarket. There have been incredibly tight controls on these things for decades. They are manufactured in completely isolated laboratories. So, given this particular weapons signature, it could only have come from Russia. So the PM was correct. The Russian state were ultimately responsible for its security. If it was deployed by them, they are to blame, if they let someone else deploy it, they are to blame. If it was stolen from their facility, they are to blame for allowing it to be stolen and need to be forthcoming about who stole it and in what quantity. As the Russian state did not respond with any reasonable explanation, the only conclusion that can be drawn was that it was a state sponsored attack.

As to things escalating out of control. We can't have any events like this repeating. What happens if the next time it is deployed, its in a cinema, the underground, an enclosed shopping center?

The diplomats that are being kicked out are those without specific responsibility, which means they are spies who either carried out the attempted murder of the father and daughter or coordinated it. It seems perfectly reasonable to eject anyone who is not here performing a specific diplomatic role, so on that basis, the PM is perfectly justified in her actions.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Military grade nerve agents are not something that can be cobbled together from items found down the local supermarket. There have been incredibly tight controls on these things for decades. They are manufactured in completely isolated laboratories. So, given this particular weapons signature, it could only have come from Russia. So the PM was correct. The Russian state were ultimately responsible for its security. If it was deployed by them, they are to blame, if they let someone else deploy it, they are to blame. If it was stolen from their facility, they are to blame for allowing it to be stolen and need to be forthcoming about who stole it and in what quantity. As the Russian state did not respond with any reasonable explanation, the only conclusion that can be drawn was that it was a state sponsored attack.

As to things escalating out of control. We can't have any events like this repeating. What happens if the next time it is deployed, its in a cinema, the underground, an enclosed shopping center?

The diplomats that are being kicked out are those without specific responsibility, which means they are spies who either carried out the attempted murder of the father and daughter or coordinated it. It seems perfectly reasonable to eject anyone who is not here performing a specific diplomatic role, so on that basis, the PM is perfectly justified in her actions.

Good points. Whichever way you look at it the Russian government have accountability. Besides they have form - they can’t cry wolf now. But fans of Corbyn are so desperate to justify his inappropriate comments they will apparently believe anything.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Youtube video

Interesting to listen to an intelligent debate from a man who's got no political leaning.

Thanks for that Kizzy.

[Underscore]

she should go further and confiscate russian oligarch property in london

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Underscore

she should go further and confiscate russian oligarch property in london

Corbyn has been saying that for a long time.

[DemolitionRed]

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Corbyn has been saying that for a long time.

He has been full of bizarre ideas for a long time. Tell us something we don’t know!

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

And daughters - they are equal in the forces now are they not!

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

He has been full of bizarre ideas for a long time. Tell us something we don’t know!

So you think confiscating Russian oligarch property in London is a bizarre idea? I mean Mays spoken about it but only because she was under pressure from her inner government and the Labour Party.

All this gaslighting at Corbyn is getting boring.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And daughters - they are equal in the forces now are they not!

Someone needs to remain and hold up the home front.

[James]

Who has said we are going to war? The response has been moderate if anything.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Someone needs to remain and hold up the home front.

But we are still associating women with the ‘Home ‘ are we.

Women have equal status in the forces and otherwise so the women won’t just be kept safe at home. Neither would women in the forces want that as they are as courageous as their male counterparts. Or don’t you agree?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

So you think confiscating Russian oligarch property in London is a bizarre idea? I mean Mays spoken about it but only because she was under pressure from her inner government and the Labour Party.

All this gaslighting at Corbyn is getting boring.

As are your constant excuses for him!

I don’t think anyone has the right to confiscate private property from anyone other than if it was stolen or gained as the result of criminal activity.

You can’t just steal from people because they are rich. If they choose to leave their properties empty that is their business as it is their property. Or is the PC brigade going to dictate exactly what people can do with their property now to keep it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

It wasn't a speech from Gavin Williams, it was his and others thoughts on what's just happened. Why was it embarrassing? because he understood Corbyn (a man he can't stand) wanted to know why plan B had been scrapped? You may not see him as intelligent but you're wrong, he's a brilliant critical thinker and he's not afraid to put that critical thinking out to an audience. That debate was a lot more intelligent than most debates we ever see on here. I suggest it was boring and embarrassing because you don't agree with him.

As for nerve agents (Novichok) falling into someone else's hands. Its entirely possible. We know that US and other Nato intelligence services visited Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and that they visited the factory in Uzbekistan where this nerve agent was made. It could of fallen into a number of hands and not only the Russians.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

As for nerve agents (Novichok) falling into someone else's hands. Its entirely possible. We know that US and other Nato intelligence services visited Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and that they visited the factory in Uzbekistan where this nerve agent was made. It could of fallen into a number of hands and not only the Russians.

So now you are trying to blame the West!!! You are incredible. You appear to have a distinct dislike of the West - it is ever present in just about everything you say on the subject.