[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/

I don't think he does.

He's wondering why what he sees as transphobia is routinely accepted on the forum and everything else (sexism, homophobia etc) are, rightly, cracked down on.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by michael21

Well she old and she called Ann

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

So is big ben

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

[michael21]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Why are you attempting to speak for someone else?...

I'll wait to see what he says thanks.

That right Kizzy you tell him

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

You also quoted me and mentioned Niamh.. As you pointed out there is enough prejudice on this forum already without your unnecessary accusatory comments.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So childish.

Yes you are!

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by michael21

That right Kizzy you tell him

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Yes you are!

This is serious debates, kids, go to bed.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.

Please don't disagree with me, my feelings are hurt when you do that, you're committing a hate crime by hurting my feelings, I feel like you're ridiculing me by not agreeing with me.

I'm only kidding, I ain't a con man.

[Ammi]

...so this escalated quickly and with a very ‘dark’ tone...let me re-read because I don’t understand, TS...(..and that’s quite unusual because you’re someone who expresses things very well..)...but I’m struggling a bit with this, with what you’re saying...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

..but how is Kizzy being ‘self important’...when her post was specifically quoted as ‘exhibit A’, to highlight your thoughts...to respond to that isn’t being ‘self-important’...you said that you explicitly stated that another member ‘was the worst’...but it wasn’t that member’s post or posts if you feel there were multiples...that you gave as ‘an example’ of your concerns..

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...’I am perfectly willing to agree that it’s open for reasonable, considered debate..that my main concern is consistency’...apologies, I struggle to bold with this device, TS...but I really am confused..because you’ve said Vicky is ‘the worst’...but that this topic is open for considered debate...yet you’ve interacted with Vicky in the thread so far as I can see...and didn’t express any concerns you’ve just stated...in your interactions, if concerns were being felt...was that not the perfect opportunity and opening for reasonable and considered debate...but you didn’t pursue it with that opening..?...and if you feel that Vicky ‘is the worst’...then surely there’s consistency...because if there wasn’t consistency then a ‘worst’ couldn’t be felt..?....

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...I don’t feel there is mocking about ‘blokes pretending to be women’...quite clear anger, yes I would agree...but (...from my perspective of any recently related thread../..topic..)...that anger, or fear I should maybe say...has been quite specific of possible vulnerabilities ...the fear of creating an opening if someone was able to ‘identify as’...with ‘self-declaration’...when there has been no transitioning..?...hmmm, I may not agree with Vicky in all areas, but her concerns are understandable and very valid also...so surely expressing those concerns can’t be deemed in any way as ‘phobic’....otherwise we all silence ourselves.....and surely there have been some debates in parliament when discussing legislations on ‘self-declaration’...because others have the same concerns as Vicky....and progression would never be a possibility if these concerns were not expressed and discussed...but you haven’t discussed them though TS, you’ve condemned them ....which is confusing....

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I accept this is your view, so I see no argument there. But as far I'm aware, there are no protected "groups" on TiBB. Most stuff that I've seen deleted (and a lot doesn't...), it's caustic or problematic commentary meant to cause a row or derail a thread. Unless certain opinions are being policed... in which case, that is simply wrong.


On topic, with regards to transgender vitriol, in my own opinion it's something that does fly under the radar quite easily, but I don't immediately connect this with anger or hate against transgender folk (depends on the person or their commentary). I tend to think it's because many folk still view transgenderism in general as a mental illness and mockery and caustic language (prejudicial treatment) towards mental illness has always been accepted criticism of someone in our society. It's OK to call someone a looney, a bunny boiler, a pathetic drug addict, etc, if their behavior is deemed to be down to some sort of personal defect, especially if it is mental or emotional. This isn't handled particularly well in the media either and it is certainly not handled all that well sometimes even in SD. So it's no surprise that transgenderism has been affected by this stigma since it currently is casting a big shadow over the grey area that lies between mental illness or actual cultural phenomenon in present popular discourse... Some mental illnesses also occupy these grey areas.

For example, when we are talking about what is "wrong" with someone, it's generally considered acceptable discourse to include mental impairments as a way to screen their behavior for other moral or personal defects related to their personhood... for example, Donald Trump and the case for him having NPD... while the media does generally cover what he is doing, they're more often obsessively focused on his more tedious behavior(s) and treating him like a monkey in a cage in need a rubber room.. and though there is validity to connecting his behavior and outbursts with NPD (there is a strong case there I think), they actively search for his mental impairments in order to make other cases for classifying his behavior as signs of serious mental impairment.. when no one, including psychologists breaking their ethics to speak on his mental state, are in any position to even diagnose or treat him. That's an uncomfortable line being crossed for me and is being crossed more and more each day the more we bring social media into the mainstream. The more silly stuff that gets said, the more the media can dig up in other people's timelines in order to play out some cynical fantasy about other people's supposed deviant behavior.

We kind of saw some of this same "fair play" with the Aspergers discussion. Except it was used in such a way to somehow make light of fairly insensitive commentary. It doesn't matter what their mental illness is, imo, if their behavior is terrible, then it is what that is... and just the same, if someone is suffering from dysphoria and acts like a general fool on public television (India), then those same variables can't then be summoned at will as a convenient shield at very particular times to protect themselves from criticism. They have a condition or a dysphoria, but that doesn't make the entirity of their personhood. They aren't bestowed additional virtues for having been identified as such. And when we add these additional markers to make a picture of how these people should be seen on basis of labels alone, we actually further stigmatize others who doesn't necessarily share those characteristics under the same umbrella.. which I think does make it much easier for some folk to cast a general blanket over certain disorders in order to validate their own shared experiences... because some sections think by placing these things on a pedestal, we "destigmatize" it. Like the concept of intersectionality, it actually makes it more difficult for those under certain labels to get out from behind them... it doesn't not just lessen the stigmatization, but it maybe even burdens them with uneasy expectations... especially for those who are still struggling and aren't coping well with even any stigma.

This is why when my grandfather lies or says he can't hear us when we're asking him very specific questions, we don't let him use his Schizophrenia or his Senioritis as an excuse to avoid ducking responsibility for his own behavior. Those are conditions that he lives with, but those conditions are not all that we see in him. And people who have had to deal with someone who is prone to this type of dodging, though it may seem harsh, that's sometimes what we have to do to get someone to not only be accountable for their own livelihood but also to get out from behind their labels so that we can see all of who they are... and not just simply treat them as a burden or disruptive element to society.

[Ammi]

...I don’t always agree with Vicky on ‘transsexual topics’ but I do understand her concerns and fears...and her concerns and fears are quite consistent, I feel...there is no inconsistency in them...many seem to come from personal experiences which sadly have been quite negative...which makes them more understandable...so something which is good to express and create openings for discussion...Niamh also understands her concerns and fears, I feel...so is very open to discussion also....


...just specific to the topic and Paris Lees...I’ve just googled her because I wasn’t familiar with her ‘story’...

While in prison Lees decided to change: "I just thought, 'I'm this silly teenage boy in a prison cell who has made a huge mistake and I want to be this happy person'

...so she identified herself as a ‘boy’ with that statement...(..there may be many other statements also, I don’t know..)...but she’s relating aspects of her life...which is basically what Anne did in the ‘debate’ on The Wright Show...saying ‘you where a boy’, so you have understanding of ‘boys clubs’...Paris would have understandings in some aspects of her life from the perspective of ‘male’, which was what Anne was inferring...and Paris is relating one of those very perspectives of her time in prison..?...

...it’s often said about ‘male priveledge’...and I do struggle a bit with that I have to say....just because I don’t feel anyone who has felt ‘incorrectly gendered’ through their lives...would never have felt a sense of ‘priveledge’ to be their society recognised gender through that time in their lives...to be priveledged, you would have to ‘feel’ that priveledge...and to me...that would feel impossible..so the comparisons can’t be made or are hard to be made in the same way with males who do feel completely correctly gendered....because that person has never felt any ‘priveledge’...all they’ve felt is unhappiness and a sense of ‘not fitting’ ...obviously this is just male to female specifically because of the topic of discussion being Anne and Paris...but I do also feel it’s relevant in many discussions to discuss a ‘whole story’ of someone’s life because of the individuality of life stories ..and how specifics have relevance’s to experiences which form opinions and stances etc...as Paris herself has obviously spoken about her specific experiences...obviously how Anne addressed it, didn’t lend to any ‘discussion’ or debate, in her directness and tactlessness...but because if her own ‘story’ of her Aspergers, it’s difficult to say whether her comment was ‘deliberate’ and intended to ‘shut down’....which makes for the interest of this news story also...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one of the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

This is serious debates, kids, go to bed.

Says one of the biggest kids on here. And you have the nerve to call me a hypocrite. Go away.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

Well yeh, and thats the issue. You're ignoring neural connective patterns, white matter, gray matter, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin and hippocampus size.. which naturally created the stereotypes you speak of. There's reasons that women and transwomen tend to be more verbal and why men and transmen tend to have poorer memory. The brains are literally different.

Assuming trans people are that way because they fit a stereotype is absurd honestly. Your gender is always in your brain, some people with penis' have a brain more akin to a woman, but some will be midway between, and some would resemble the brain of neither sex. Its just a thing that has always happened, and will always happen.

Nobody is trans just because they like make-up and used to play with dolls. Its the assumption that they are which is transphobic.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

I think it obvious many women share vicky’s concerns on this as the reactions of many women over issues such as non-transitioned men using women’s bathrooms, has highlighted.

But TS is not a woman so I question why he thinks he has the right to not only question such concerns that would not affect him personally - but to attach labels to women who have them. The potential risks to women, not men, are obvious.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well yeh, and thats the issue. You're ignoring neural connective patterns, white matter, gray matter, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin and hippocampus size.. which naturally created the stereotypes you speak of. There's reasons that women and transwomen tend to be more verbal and why men and transmen tend to have poorer memory. The brains are literally different.

Assuming trans people are that way because they fit a stereotype is absurd honestly. Your gender is always in your brain, some people with penis' have a brain more akin to a woman, but some will be midway between, and some would resemble the brain of neither sex. Its just a thing that has always happened, and will always happen.

Nobody is trans just because they like make-up and used to play with dolls. Its the assumption that they are which is transphobic.

I'm not ignoring anything, I just disagree with you. You give an example there of women being more verbal than men, that's a stereotype. I'm not verbal at all irl, Gav is very verbal, does that mean I'm a man and he's a woman? no of course not. Biology and life experience of being treated as a woman because of that biology is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man imo.