[Niamh.]

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not ignoring anything, I just disagree with you. You give an example there of women being more verbal than men, that's a stereotype. I'm not verbal at all irl, Gav is very verbal, does that mean I'm a man and he's a woman? no of course not. Biology and life experience of being treated as a woman because of that biology is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man imo.

Of course there are exclusions. There are hundreds of differences, that is one of the main ones. Women and transwomen tend to be more verbal than men and transmen on average, because women and transwomen have verbal hemispheres on both sides of the brain, and men and transmen do not. That is not to say that every woman and transwoman uses it very often, but it is there. It exists.
Ie: Gav uses the little he does have excellently, and you use yours less despite having more scattered around your brain (assuming youre both cis).
You can disagree with this undeniable difference if you want, but your refusal to acknowledge these differences are literally scaffolding your less-than-positive reviews of transpeople, and thats a shame.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Of course there are exclusions. There are hundreds of differences, that is one of the main ones. Women and transwomen tend to be more verbal than men and transmen on average, because women and transwomen have verbal hemispheres on both sides of the brain, and men and transmen do not. That is not to say that every woman and transwoman uses it very often, but it is there. It exists.
Ie: Gav uses the little he does have excellently, and you use yours less despite having more scattered around your brain (assuming youre both cis).
You can disagree with this undeniable difference if you want, but your refusal to acknowledge these differences are literally scaffolding your less-than-positive reviews of transpeople, and thats a shame.

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

They're not at all inconclusive, they're extremely visibile on fmri scans. Several differences between male and female brains have been recorded, thats just a thing thats 100% guaranteed.

Soz for annoying you with the word cis.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

They're not at all inconclusive, they're extremely visibile on fmri scans. Several differences between male and female brains have been recorded, thats just a thing thats 100% guaranteed.

Soz for annoying you with the word cis.

They actually are

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-female-brain/

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

They actually are

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-female-brain/

I'm not playing swap the link with you

Yours doesnt really disprove or prove much

It reveals that most people have a mix of male and female brain features. And it also supports the idea that gender is non-binary, and that gender classifications in many situations are meaningless.

I can agree with that - more of a scale than two statutory points. Surely you can see why a person born a man would want to be a transwoman if their brain was more of a heavier mix of a female brain?

How thats not just a bunch of stereotypes like you assumed an hour ago?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm not playing swap the link with you

Yours doesnt really disprove or prove much



I can agree with that - more of a scale than two statutory points. Surely you can see why a person born a man would want to be a transwoman if their brain was more of a heavier mix of a female brain?

How thats not just a bunch of stereotypes like you assumed an hour ago?

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking here? (and again I'm not sure what you mean by "female brain"

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking here? (and again I'm not sure what you mean by "female brain"

Well, did you read the link you sent me. It defines the idea of male and female features of the brain, but how there arent two definitive brains, everyones brain is on a binary scale from extremely masculine to extremely feminine with everybody in between the two points.

If a person was born with a penis had more feminine features to their brain, you can see why they would sooner identify as a woman?

How thats not stereotypes like you assumed, their brain is literally structured in a feminine way.

That is what trans is? Brain differences, not stereotypes?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well, did you read the link you sent me. It defines the idea of male and female features of the brain, but how there arent two definitive brains, everyones brain is on a binary scale from extremely masculine to extremely feminine with everybody in between the two points.

If a person was born with a penis had more feminine features to their brain, you can see why they would sooner identify as a woman?

How thats not stereotypes like you assumed, their brain is literally structured in a feminine way.

That is what trans is? Brain differences, not stereotypes?

No I can't see that at all because if that were the case I'd be identifying as a man myself but again I don't define my gender by stereotypes, I define it by biology and life experiences because of that biology.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

No I can't see that at all because if that were the case I'd be identifying as a man myself but again I don't define my gender by stereotypes, I define it by biology and life experiences because of that biology.

I dont understand why you keep bringing up stereotypes though. I've never brought that up, your link never brought that up - as far as I can tell, thats just your misconception of what gender is.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I dont understand why you keep bringing up stereotypes though. I've never brought that up, your link never brought that up - as far as I can tell, thats just your misconception of what gender is.

I posted the definition of gender a few posts up and it pretty much says a bunch of stereotypes, doesn't mention the word brain once but OK I'm the one who doesn't understand gender

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I posted the definition of gender a few posts up and it pretty much says a bunch of stereotypes, doesn't mention the word brain once but OK I'm the one who doesn't understand gender

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

Theres nothing I disagree with in the definition. There are social and cultural differences between gender, gender is encouraged from an early age. You're just ignoring why this has happened.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

You know it's possible to have this discussion without having little digs at me Withano. I don't think it's "odd" to interpret the Bits I've bolded to mean stereotypes

the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender
Today 09:25 AM

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

Theres nothing I disagree with in the definition. There are social and cultural differences between gender, gender is encouraged from an early age. You're just ignoring why this has happened.

I'm not ignoring why this has happened, I disagree with your view of why it happened

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I'm not ignoring why this has happened, I disagree with your view of why it happened

Well I'm saying it has happened because of brain differences. You shared a link highligting these brain differences. Are you now disagreeing with the link you shared?

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well I'm saying it has happened because of brain differences. You shared a link highligting these brain differences. Are you now disagreeing with the link you shared?

The link I posted says there is no male or female brains, they specifically have the "male" and "female" in "'s because of that

“There are not two types of brain”

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Maru

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

Make TiBB Gay Again

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

The link I posted says there is no male or female brains, they specifically have the "male" and "female" in "'s because of that

“There are not two types of brain”

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

I've been through this, I feel like you're just skirting around the question by ignoring what I'm saying

The link you shared highlights how there is a more typically masculine brain, and a more typically female brain, with nearly everybody falling between the two on a binary scale.

You're saying transpeople feel that way because of stereotypes, when this link would clearly imply that a transperson would actually just have a brain which is structured in a more feminine or masculine way, which does not correlate with their birth-sex.

Women and transwomen will have, on average, a more feminine brain
Men and transmen will have, on average, a more masculine brain
This has created stereotypes like women having a better verbal ability because they are, on average, better at verbal reasoning due to their brain structure.

Which part of you disagreeing with?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I've been through this, I feel like you're just skirting around the question by ignoring what I'm saying

The link you shared highlights how there is a more typically masculine brain, and a more typically female brain, with nearly everybody falling between the two on a binary scale.

You're saying transpeople feel that way because of stereotypes, when this link would clearly imply that a transperson would actually just have a brain which is structured in a more feminine or masculine way, which does not correlate with their birth-sex.

Women and transwomen will have, on average, a more feminine brain
Men and transmen will have, on average, a more masculine brain
This has created stereotypes like women having a better verbal ability because they are, on average, better at verbal reasoning due to their brain structure.

Which part of you disagreeing with?

Hang on a second now Withano I never said Trans people feel that way because of anything. What I said was I believe gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

BIB - If most people fall in between the two then they're not really "typically" male or female are they? I think that's what the link I posted was saying actually

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Hang on a second now Withano I never said Trans people feel that way because of anything. What I said was I believe gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

BIB - If most people fall in between the two then they're not really "typically" male or female are they? I think that's what the link I posted was saying actually

They were saying that most of the world is non-binary, which I too agree with! But I'm not having that debate on tibb!

The link was saying that there are feminine features of the brain and masculine features of the brain - I can understand why a person that has a large majority of feminine features would become a transwoman, thats logical to me... Sure they'd be non-binary, like 90% of the world, but their gender is far more female than male despite having a penis (unless they are one of the rare few with an entirely feminine brain, which could still happen).. I can see why they'd want to present themselves as female, and why they aould want people to view them that way.

Thats why they become trans, brain differences, not stereotypes?
And thats what gender is, brain differences, not stereotypes?

[DemolitionRed]

The problem for me is, this started as an energetic and Inteligent debate some months ago. The person who lead that debate was very diplomatic and many of the people who joined in, including you Kizzy, stated the opinion they are entitled to in a way that it could be discussed further. I think most of enjoyed that debate. Then other debates started where transgenderism was a main point and because it had now been established who was for and against, it was much more vitriol than the first one. It started to sound hateful and transphobic, unlike the first one. I didn't join in those threads because I didn't see any point. I saw comments being accepted that didn't sit comfortably with me and so after reading half a dozen posts, I just sighed and shut it down. At one point on here it felt like transgenderism was being hung drawn and quartered.

I think Vicky, Niamh and Kizzy are intelligent women and more than capable of having some good debates. Unfortunately those sort of threads attract tag teaming and bitterness from certain people who's only way of debating is to make a strong attempt to shut opposing opinions down. I know I came back strongly at Vicky in that first post. She didn't take offense but explained why she felt like she did and equally, I didn't take offense at why she felt the way she did. I can't though, remain calm when someone else jumps on my explanation of acceptance and attempts to mock my opinion with sarcasms.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

Thanks Niamh In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

They were saying that most of the world is non-binary, which I too agree with! But I'm not having that debate on tibb!

The link was saying that there are feminine features of the brain and masculine features of the brain - I can understand why a person that has a large majority of feminine features would become a transwoman, thats logical to me... Sure they'd be non-binary, like 90% of the world, but their gender is far more female than male despite having a penis (unless they are one of the rare few with an entirely feminine brain, which could still happen).. I can see why they'd want to present themselves as female, and what people to view them that way.

Thats why they become trans, not stereotypes?

I actually agree with part of your opinion on this but arrive at a different conclusion, I'm not sure I'm articulating my thoughts very well though Like, I agree with the first half of your post but my conclusion is that "male" and "female" traits shouldn't be linked to having a penis or a vagina and they don't feel like they are to me, if you get what I mean? Like I would consider myself to have a lot of "male" traits and was never very "girly" but I don't see things like that as what make me a woman, does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well