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Serious Debates & News Debate and discussion about political, moral, philosophical, celebrity and news topics. |
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18-03-2018, 02:58 PM | #201 | |||
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I Love my brick
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18-03-2018, 03:16 PM | #203 | ||
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18-03-2018, 03:20 PM | #204 | ||
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Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.
Last edited by Marsh.; 18-03-2018 at 03:21 PM. |
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18-03-2018, 03:23 PM | #205 | |||
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Withano
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18-03-2018, 03:23 PM | #206 | |||
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18-03-2018, 03:25 PM | #207 | ||
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Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.
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18-03-2018, 03:30 PM | #208 | ||
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We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you. Last edited by Marsh.; 18-03-2018 at 03:30 PM. |
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18-03-2018, 03:35 PM | #209 | |||
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The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).
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18-03-2018, 03:35 PM | #210 | ||
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As far as I am aware Women have never even been asked about their views on this which I find astonishing considering the implications for them. It says a lot about how their views are valued by some including transwomen. It comes across as some seeing their rights as more important. I find the whole thing quite frustrating. |
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18-03-2018, 04:22 PM | #211 | ||
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I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces. |
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18-03-2018, 04:25 PM | #212 | |||
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This Witch doesn't burn
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'put a bit of lippy on and run a brush through your hair, we are alcoholics, not savages' |
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18-03-2018, 04:27 PM | #213 | ||
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I don't think TS' problem was with their viewpoint per se. He says he doesn't believe they're transphobic.
But the language used when they're discussing it wouldn't ordinarily be tolerated if similar was used when discussing another minority group. Last edited by Marsh.; 18-03-2018 at 04:28 PM. |
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18-03-2018, 04:31 PM | #214 | |||
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Thanks
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins Last edited by jaxie; 18-03-2018 at 04:32 PM. |
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18-03-2018, 04:40 PM | #215 | |||
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins |
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18-03-2018, 05:22 PM | #216 | |||
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I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.
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18-03-2018, 05:34 PM | #217 | |||
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It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins |
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18-03-2018, 05:47 PM | #218 | |||
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BBCAN: Erica | Will | Veronica | Johnny | Alejandra | Ryan | Paras |
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18-03-2018, 05:48 PM | #219 | ||
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And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.
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18-03-2018, 05:56 PM | #220 | |||
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You, as in you personally, are engaging in discussion and you are a lot more polite than many posters about it. But I do get a vibe you are not really listening and understanding the problem. This has nothing to do with trans prejudice and everything to do with the rights of women. When I say women I mean those born a woman not those choosing it, not bananas, women.
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this. Terry Pratchett “I am thrilled to be alive at time when humanity is pushing against the limits of understanding. Even better, we may eventually discover that there are no limits.” ― Richard Dawkins Last edited by jaxie; 18-03-2018 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Detergent |
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18-03-2018, 06:15 PM | #221 | |||
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On your last point though, that's what I was getting at earlier with the original post when I said that trans people are included within the group of women whichever way it's looked at, because if you're referring specifically to women who were born as women, then that would include trans men. It's not a one or the other when it comes to women and trans people. However I do consider transwomen to be women (albeit women who are different/not 'the same as') so when talking about women's rights I take into consideration transwomens rights as well, not 'instead of' though. But just because I disagree on that it doesn't mean I'm not listening to or misunderstanding the opposing view, I just hold a different opinion to it.
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BBCAN: Erica | Will | Veronica | Johnny | Alejandra | Ryan | Paras |
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18-03-2018, 06:23 PM | #222 | |||
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Triumph of the Weird
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I'd always been under the impression that the brain's spacial differences developed more according to how we used it, not necessarily by biology. Have we separated genetic brain development from what is environmental/individually ingrained...
And the way I see it, some people have higher aptitude in certain areas, so perhaps more connections are made... but for example, if you have never developed a certain skill or trait, then that part lays in atrophy... and developing, encouraging new habits, it takes a lot of repetition, I guess to map learn new behavioral patterns.... But our personalities are a complex thing. They're likely dependent on several dependencies, and some areas may strongly reinforce certain aspects, so different to remap in that sense.... As far as biology, yes, they've seen differences between brains, but I was under the impression that was individualized and didn't necessarily mean there was a cause, it could be instead be a symptom... For example, if I have an addiction, my pleasure centers are going to look different than other folk. If someone is suffering from dysphoria and is constantly dealing with the discomfort of their identity, then why would it not make sense they may align or develop their behaviors according to chosen sex... and as such, that those brain characteristics may grow accordingly. I sometimes sound like a Latina, and have certain characteristic of that speech as those were the female peers I associated with... but then I don't think that because my speech patterns show in brain images that that suddenly means I'm full Mexican. It just means my environment shaped my thinking, my mannerisms and the way I feel comfortable communicating with others... The thing is, when many people transitions, it doesn't end the dysphoria. It helps to alleviate it, but it doesn't end the symptoms. That's why I err on the side of caution when it comes to "brain scans" as being the proof in the pudding. I think more research needs to be done into why there is a dysphoria in the first place... not simply, oh, there's more female centers and thus female... there's a lot we still don't really understand about the human brain... and if it down to mental illness, then we need to know what it is, so we can treat it better actually and improve the livelihood of those who are suffering with it... but when these discussions are had, they are treated as "transphobic" by activists for not falling in line with their subscribed thought processes... I think on SD in particular, it feels like an inquisition sometimes... and I think Nom and Vicky, maybe they were like me, did their own research in their own time in an attempt to understand why there are so many difficult feelings there when simply having a discussion... and what I've found does not necessarily paint a pretty picture of where we are going as a society, when discussions about science are labeled as counter-productive, anti-insert thing, pro-male white supremacy, etc... there's an uglier side to this activism, and I think--because these issues are so close to home to them--some folk would rather ignore that this exists and fosters a looming sense of anxiety when it comes to these discussions... because there are political ideologies trying to entrench themselves with this activist... and for better or worse, they have hijacked the discussion which I think has distracted from what is actually helpful to those suffering versus what they'd like to accomplish instead... but yes, that is the short version, and I think people who are talking about what they think is evidence, would not like to be straw-manned into one of those side conversations about what is decency, what is socially acceptable in discussion and so on... |
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18-03-2018, 06:28 PM | #223 | |||
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self-oscillating
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Bang on Maru
Pass me a taco |
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18-03-2018, 09:50 PM | #224 | |||
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Senior Member
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Being born female isn't a dirty secret but its up to the individual about sharing such information. Having someone else broadcast personal details about a persons gender is unnecessary and in his case damaging.
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19-03-2018, 10:55 AM | #225 | |||
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Serious question...you know if someone loses a leg they can get that phantom leg syndrom..which i have been told hurts like buggery.Does anyone know if well, you know..phantom boaby syndrome...is it a thing?
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