[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well lesbian sex offenders would be allowed in the bathroom? And gay sex offenders would be allowed in yours? Not much you can do to stop that?

what does someones sexuality have to do with it? Lesbians are still women. And as such, are welcome in womens spaces, obviously. not sure what point you are trying to prove here but its coming across slightly homophobic tbh

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

what does someones sexuality have to do with it? Lesbians are still women. And as such, are welcome in womens spaces, obviously. not sure what point you are trying to prove here but its coming across slightly homophobic tbh

I'm sure his point was Harvey Weinstein is a pervert and could have access to that bathroom? When theres not much you can do about sex offenders using bathrooms, even without that bizarre example. Heterosexual sex offenders probably wont have much interest in offending in that environment.

I was responding to an odd point with an odd point!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'm sure his point was Harvey Weinstein is a pervert and could have access to that bathroom? When theres not much you can do about it even without that bizarre example. Heterosexual sex offenders probably wont have much interest in offending in that environment.

I was responding to an odd point with an odd point!

I don't really think the point you replied to was odd at all. There is plenty you could do about it. make womens spaces penis free. Job done.

Fairly sure this hypothetical example was not...he had a sex change, just he decided to 'identify' as a woman, as many sex offenders will actually do. Which is part of the problem tbh, anyone can sere how this will be abused.

Men offend at a much higher rate than women, that cannot be argued against. The average man could overpower the average woman easily. So, if a male sex offender decided he was a woman, would you be happy with him going in womens spaces? Even knowing what he is?

Its nothing to do with lesbians or sexuality. Its about basically, do you prioritize the safety of women, or the feelings of men. Its an either or kind of thing. Which is unfortunate. But its how it is.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well lesbian sex offenders would be allowed in the bathroom? And gay sex offenders would be allowed in yours? Not much you can do to stop that?

If you think lesbian offenders number anywhere near male offenders you need a reality check. Not to mention women have a far better chance of fighting off other women than they do men.

I don’t think you have given the whole issue any real thought other than to blindly defend the ‘principle’ of men having it all.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

“Fully transition” ?

What?do some just get the bolloxs cut off and call it a day?

Some can't have all the procedures done for a variety of reasons. I have a female to male friend who was given the procedure to have his breasts removed, but he isn't allowed 'bottom surgery' for medical reasons.

This is where it sort of complicates the issue. He's a man to look at, to meet him, to hear him speak, if he was seen entering a women's changing room he would probably be considered a pervert, I'd assume that many of the people who don't want men in female areas would not want him there because to look at him they would assume he's a man. However he has a vagina, and although not 'fully transitioned', he is a transsexual man. Under the rule of 'penises here and vaginas there', as simple as it might sound as a solution, it wouldn't leave someone like him with many other options other than to just stay at home, or be forced to show his vagina on entry to a women's private space should he need to use one.

[AnnieK]

A lot of the leisure centres I use near me have 3 changing rooms, male, female and unisex/family which is better people can choose and its easier for me now as my son is 7 (going on 17) and no longer wants to be in female changing rooms and I don't want him to go into the male changing room on his own (as much because he will dick about rather than getting changed). Adding a third choice would make it easier for anyone transitioning as they will not be classed as being in the "wrong" changing room and for people who want to be comfortable that they are in a single sex environment

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If you think lesbian offenders number anywhere near male offenders you need a reality check. Not to mention women have a far better chance of fighting off other women than they do men.

I don’t think you have given the whole issue any real thought other than to blindly defend the ‘principle’ of men having it all.

Well thats not at all what I said.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't really think the point you replied to was odd at all. There is plenty you could do about it. make womens spaces penis free. Job done.

Fairly sure this hypothetical example was not...he had a sex change, just he decided to 'identify' as a woman, as many sex offenders will actually do. Which is part of the problem tbh, anyone can sere how this will be abused.

Men offend at a much higher rate than women, that cannot be argued against. The average man could overpower the average woman easily. So, if a male sex offender decided he was a woman, would you be happy with him going in womens spaces? Even knowing what he is?

Its nothing to do with lesbians or sexuality. Its about basically, do you prioritize the safety of women, or the feelings of men. Its an either or kind of thing. Which is unfortunate. But its how it is.

Oh right, i thought his point was what if Harvey was a transwoman, a sex offender, and lesbian which wouldnt be much different to woman, sex offender, and lesbian.
I can see why pretending to be trans is a separate issue.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Some can't have all the procedures done for a variety of reasons. I have a female to male friend who was given the procedure to have his breasts removed, but he isn't allowed 'bottom surgery' for medical reasons.

This is where it sort of complicates the issue. He's a man to look at, to meet him, to hear him speak, if he was seen entering a women's changing room he would probably be considered a pervert, I'd assume that many of the people who don't want men in female areas would not want him there because to look at him they would assume he's a man. However he has a vagina, and although not 'fully transitioned', he is a transsexual man. Under the rule of 'penises here and vaginas there', as simple as it might sound as a solution, it wouldn't leave someone like him with many other options other than to just stay at home, or be forced to show his vagina on entry to a women's private space should he need to use one.

I think its a bit different if people 'pass', as noone would even know.

I would personally feel much more comfortable changing infront of a transman, than a regular man, as a transman is female. But if they pass, they would fit in in the mens anyway. Transmen seem to pass more often than transwomen.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Oh right, i thought his point was what if Harvey was a transwoman, a sex offender, and lesbian which wouldnt be much different to woman, sex offender, and lesbian.
I can see why pretending to be trans is a separate issue.

Harvey could not be a lesbian, as a lesbian is a female. This whole 'male lesbian' thing really bloody annoys me

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Harvey could not be a lesbian, as a lesbian is a female. This whole 'male lesbian' thing really bloody annoys me

What would you call Lauren Harries if she was sexually attracted to women? prewarning: if you say heterosexual my head will explode in confusion

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

What would you call Lauren Harries if she was sexually attracted to women? prewarning: if you say heterosexual my head will explode in confusion

Well she is technically. She is male. A male attracted to females is straight. Sexuality is about sex. Not 'gender'.

Lesbians are female people attracted to females.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with fully transitioned transsexual women calling themselves lesbian as such. Its all these 'lesbians' with 'lady dicks' that are my problem. Perverts, and fairly rapey also. Straight men, finding new ways to attack and pressure lesbians into shagging them. Dickheads.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She is male.

Well no. I guess thats why I couldnt understand your point before.

I'd argue that this counts as transphobia tbh.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well no. I guess thats why I couldnt understand your point before.

I'd argue that this counts as transphobia tbh.

Acknowledging someones sex is transphobia?

Transsexual people acknowledge their sex. Generally.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I think its a bit different if people 'pass', as noone would even know.

I would personally feel much more comfortable changing infront of a transman, than a regular man, as a transman is female. But if they pass, they would fit in in the mens anyway. Transmen seem to pass more often than transwomen.

Oh yeah, well it's certainly easy(ish) for him as things currently are (I mean not really easy in every situation but compared to the how I put it across in my post I mean). If it's about how people 'pass' rather than their biology though, does that not contradict the argument that people with penises should be in one area and people with vaginas should be in the other?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Oh yeah, well it's certainly easy(ish) for him as things currently are (I mean not really easy in every situation but compared to the how I put it across in my post I mean). If it's about how people 'pass' rather than their biology though, does that not contradict the argument that people with penises should be in one area and people with vaginas should be in the other?

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Acknowledging someones sex is transphobia?

Transsexual people acknowledge their sex. Generally.

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

[Vicky.]

I genuinely do not think that acknowledging that a male person is male is transphobic. Lauren acknowledges her sex. She had operations to ease the dysphoria, but an actual sex change is not possible, and everyone knows this.

I don't 'see her' as a man. But I do acknowledge she is male.

I cannot think of a racist analogy here, but saying, a black person is black, is not racist. Saying a gay person is gay is not homophobic.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Withano

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

She didn’t call Lauren Harries a man.She said male.Which is true.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head

Perfect sense. Basically any man would be given access to female bathrooms and changing rooms with a few simple words - and anyone who cannot see the potential risk to women and girls is either a liar or completely refusing to acknowledge it due to an agenda.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I genuinely do not think that acknowledging that a male person is male is transphobic. .

What sort of comments do you think people were thinking about when they mentioned yours (and other peoples) transphobia.

Its stuff like that above "acknowledging a male person is a male". Clearly she is not a male, does not want to be seen as one, and does not want to live as one. Calling her one is transphobic. Its refusing to accept her as a her, and it is ignorant.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

What sort of comments do you think people were thinking about when they mentioned yours (and other peoples) transphobia.

Its stuff like that above "acknowledging a male person is a male". Clearly she is not a male, does not want to be seen as one, and does not want to live as one. Calling her one is transphobic. Its refusing to accept her as a her, and it is ignorant.

She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

Stop jumping on bandwagons. Many have expressed the opposite view so your comments are just stirring yet again.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head

No it does make sense, and that first part, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to use the female areas (we don't actually talk a lot about these issues believe it or not but he does use the male facilities where he can - depending on the place, not everywhere has suitable facilities for people like him who pass as male but doesn't have a penis) I would imagine that having to use female facilities would exacerbate his dysphoria. But yeah I get what you mean with all of that from previous conversations, I suppose I'm just trying to highlight a nuance as I saw it as I don't think it's all that straight forward as was being suggested.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

No it does make sense, and that first part, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to use the female areas (we don't actually talk a lot about these issues believe it or not but he does use the male facilities where he can - depending on the place, not everywhere has suitable facilities for people like him who pass as male but doesn't have a penis) I would imagine that having to use female facilities would exacerbate his dysphoria. But yeah I get what you mean with all of that from previous conversations, I suppose I'm just trying to highlight a nuance as I saw it as I don't think it's all that straight forward as was being suggested.

Yeah its a complicated topic.

I think transmen have it easier too, as they do tend to pass better. On average they look smaller than men, but the testosterone seems to work very well and very fast.