[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

[Vicky.]

Her sex is still male. A sex change is not possible. I only brought up her sex as we were talking about the many heterosexual males who claim they (and their penises) are lesbian.

[jaxie]

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

[michael21]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

That remind me I much catch up on orange is the new black

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Withano

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

I haven't told anyone that they should get priority.

Read and comprehend what's been written before jumping to conclusions.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I haven't told anyone that they should get priority.

Read and comprehend what's been written before jumping to conclusions.

The negative effects and risks of self-identified male transgenders having access to female areas have been pointed out many times and quite frankly are obvious. You still fully support it though which demonstrates your lack of concern on the risks to women and clearly shows where your priorities lie. I have jumped to no conclusions as your views are clear and your lack of understanding or thought for the female perspective is crystal clear.

All the sexual predators, perverts and misogynists out there must have a big smile on their faces at the lack of concern demonstrated for women’s rights and women’s safety by many men. As has been pointed out on many occasions transgenders’ ‘rights’ do not and should not trample over womens’ rights to privacy and safety.

Safety should be the main concern here for everyone but too many are too busy shouting about the ‘rights’ of a minority group, mostly men, and point-scoring to give a crap.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Maru

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

Great post Maru

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves.

Youre playing with fire there Withano .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

It's not coming across that way to me

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

..but then if it’s being understood incorrectly, Withano...surely that would be the need for tolerance on the forum../...in discussions...because if these discussions couldn’t happen in the same way...’correct’ understandings would not be achieved...?...it is quite a complex topic...whereas f words and n words are not complex at all in their intolerance by staff...and it’s a fairly ‘new’ topic in terms of progression of understandings etc...’stifling’ will only surely...well stifle and hinder....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Withano

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

What about male posters on here who call women love, darling, sweetheart etc in a mocking way, which is blatant sexism, and don't get infracted. You don't seem to have a problem with that. When it suits hey!

[Ammi]

...I just don’t feel that TiBB is ‘tolerating transphobia’...but tolerating discussions which help ‘correct understanding’...from all perspectives of a complex topic in our own individual understandings....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..but then if it’s being understood incorrectly, Withano...surely that would be the need for tolerance on the forum../...in discussions...because if these discussions couldn’t happen in the same way...’correct’ understandings would not be achieved...?...it is quite a complex topic...whereas f words and n words are not complex at all in their intolerance by staff...and it’s a fairly ‘new’ topic in terms of progression of understandings etc...’stifling’ will only surely...well stifle and hinder....

I would call it controlling behaviour myself - it is trying to not only control what people can say, when the words they use are not abusive, but apparently not PC enough for them, but about trying to control peoples' thoughts.

Personally, the more controlling some people try to be the more I rebel. By behaving that way they just create an adverse effect and even more negative thoughts on the subject. PC point scoring, nothing else in my book, that has the opposite effect to what they claim they are trying to achieve. Withano and others like him will never control my thoughts or words and I have no doubt many others feel the same.

[Jamie89]

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....

It was actually tibb that brought my attention to all the self ID issues, and I have a friend in real life who's trans

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

Thanks Brillo that's very kind of you to say

Just an extra thought actually on what I said, I do wonder what it must be like sometimes if we have trans members on here, or if trans people are just viewing the forum. I know that can't really dictate the conversation but in terms of tact I wonder if people would come at it differently if friends of theirs on the forum were trans. But yeah just a thought really.

[Cherie]

Just listening to an interesting debate on this on 5 Live now

[bitontheslide]

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

[LeatherTrumpet]

The reality is a few folk on twitter called her it and frankly no one cares but now things like that are used as news items by media outlets to get views

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The negative effects and risks of self-identified male transgenders having access to female areas have been pointed out many times and quite frankly are obvious. You still fully support it though which demonstrates your lack of concern on the risks to women and clearly shows where your priorities lie. I have jumped to no conclusions as your views are clear and your lack of understanding or thought for the female perspective is crystal clear.

All the sexual predators, perverts and misogynists out there must have a big smile on their faces at the lack of concern demonstrated for women’s rights and women’s safety by many men. As has been pointed out on many occasions transgenders’ ‘rights’ do not and should not trample over womens’ rights to privacy and safety.

Safety should be the main concern here for everyone but too many are too busy shouting about the ‘rights’ of a minority group, mostly men, and point-scoring to give a crap.

Again, you've made all of that up out of thin air.

"You still fully support it"

No I do not. You've jumped to those conclusions based on nothing.

Read and comprehend.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Again, you've made all of that up out of thin air.

"You still fully support it"

No I do not. You've jumped to those conclusions based on nothing.

Read and comprehend.

Nothing - really! What are you arguing about then. Do you or don't you support the self-identification of men as women who are therefore free to use the ladies bathrooms?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

Yes I agree.

This is a very good article actually talking about just that, in it also she pretty much down to a tee describes what I was trying to say earlier about what I think makes me a woman, lots and lots of women have said the exact same thing but when we say it we're told no we're wrong that isn't what makes us a woman, instead we have to just believe what someone else tell us makes us a woman :

My experience of being a woman is, for the most part biological. When I think about what makes me a woman, it’s all tangled up with my female body. It’s the embarrassment the first time I leaked on a chair during my period, the frustration of trying to buy a nice bra in TopShop when I was a D cup and none of my friends had reached a B yet. It’s having sex for the first time, discovering masturbation, having pregnancy scares, feeling my biological clock start to tick as I enter my late twenties. Having adult men shout ‘nice tits’ at me when I wasn’t quite fifteen yet. It’s as simple as having your bra’s underwire poke you in the chest all day or asking a stranger in a bathroom if she had a spare tampon. Small, universal experiences that any other woman – or at least any other cis woman – would understand.


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