[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Denver

At least 3 Brits are among those dead with 7 more missing and presumed dead

Killing innocent civilians from numerous different countries is certainly one way to rally the international community strongly against you

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

I'm not patriotic in any way because it's all an accident of birth as far as I'm concerned, but I'm self aware enough to Know that if the Romans turned up tomorrow and turfed me out of my house, put me in an open air prison, murdered generations of my family, stripped away any rights I had to participate in a society, I'd be fully radicalised to undertake whatever it took to hit back against any and all of my oppressors, and I think most people would.

Indeed but then you should also be self-aware enough to know that if a gang of extremists, or freedom fighters, whichever you choose to call them; a gang of men from one of the countless middle eastern countries that the UK has helped to destroy -- turned up at your house tomorrow, murdered your family and towed them off in a truck, you wouldn't be stood on your front doorstep sighing "Ahh well, we had it comin' I guess."

And the thing is I agree with you - if my family was killed because of the actions of another state, 100% I'd be off-the-rails crazy and trying to burn the world to the ground. Objective (as far as it can be) morality would be absolutely out the window. Like I said the actions can be explained, they can even be understandable, without being justified. Causing suffering to civilians because of political action simply cannot be justified.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Indeed but then you should also be self-aware enough to know that if a gang of extremists, or freedom fighters, whichever you choose to call them; a gang of men from one of the countless middle eastern countries that the UK has helped to destroy -- turned up at your house tomorrow, murdered your family and towed them off in a truck, you wouldn't be stood on your front doorstep sighing "Ahh well, we had it comin' I guess."

And the thing is I agree with you - if my family was killed because of the actions of another state, 100% I'd be off-the-rails crazy and trying to burn the world to the ground. Objective (as far as it can be) morality would be absolutely out the window. Like I said the actions can be explained, they can even be understandable, without being justified. Causing suffering to civilians because of political action simply cannot be justified.

in a nutshell

[Nicky91]

some Synagogues here in my nation Netherlands want extra security measures out of fears for potential terror attacks against them living here




PVV's Geert Wilders hates our decommissionary government whom do support Ukraine, Turkey, Armenia, yet we don't raise the israeli flag here out of sympathies, he called us hypocrites


yup times of election ladies, you see our extreme right idiot sucking up to ethnic minorities

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

our government, and by extension, us citizens

I suppose for added clarity - I fundamentally reject this as a statement. Quite simply an illusion. The electorate has barely any real political influence over domestic politics, and none at all over global events. Those cogs are not forged in a voting booth or anywhere near one.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Livia

How many people of unknown origin have we let into this country in the last couple of years? If I was a terrorist leader I'd make sure as many of my people were shipped in as possible.

It has been said many times but shut down as racist to even mention it, I wouldnt be surprised if there are attacks in Europe soon

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

It has been said many times but shut down as racist to even mention it, I wouldnt be surprised if there are attacks in Europe soon

It's a bit of a red herring IMO, the large terrorist organisations have resources/means of getting people in that are nothing to do with the formal immigration system.

Plus (not to beat a dusty old drum or anything) but they ****ed the NHS and health education through the floor so we have to import large numbers of staff from Africa/India & Pakistan/The Middle East for our own country to be even barely functional.

And you're a lot more likely to die of a stroke than in a terrorist attack.

[Livia]

Kosher restaurant in north London destroyed. Here we go again. And the news is glossing over marches in Europe to support Hamas. We already have armed guards and emergency lockdown systems in Jewish schools, the only group in the UK that needs this kind of protection. for children. My own synagogue has stab vests available for people who are worried and it's not because we're afraid of the far right.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Livia

Kosher restaurant in north London destroyed. Here we go again. And the news is glossing over marches in Europe to support Hamas. We already have armed guards and emergency lockdown systems in Jewish schools, the only group in the UK that needs this kind of protection. for children. My own synagogue has stab vests available for people who are worried and it's not because we're afraid of the far right.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

Kosher restaurant in north London destroyed. Here we go again. And the news is glossing over marches in Europe to support Hamas. We already have armed guards and emergency lockdown systems in Jewish schools, the only group in the UK that needs this kind of protection. for children. My own synagogue has stab vests available for people who are worried and it's not because we're afraid of the far right.

Appalling this is happening in the UK, thoughts with you and the Jewish community

[Livia]

Thanks, MTVN. So glad my family moved from London.

[LeatherTrumpet]

still the main thing is we are not welcoming in thousands of fighting age Muslim men into the UK every week...

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

Indeed but then you should also be self-aware enough to know that if a gang of extremists, or freedom fighters, whichever you choose to call them; a gang of men from one of the countless middle eastern countries that the UK has helped to destroy -- turned up at your house tomorrow, murdered your family and towed them off in a truck, you wouldn't be stood on your front doorstep sighing "Ahh well, we had it comin' I guess."

And the thing is I agree with you - if my family was killed because of the actions of another state, 100% I'd be off-the-rails crazy and trying to burn the world to the ground. Objective (as far as it can be) morality would be absolutely out the window. Like I said the actions can be explained, they can even be understandable, without being justified. Causing suffering to civilians because of political action simply cannot be justified.

I don't expect anyone to think they had it coming, and I never implied otherwise. There is a very clear aggressor/oppressor in this conflict, and I hate the word conflict in this instance, because it implies it's a 50:50 dispute, but that's just a basic fact. Again, the attention is subtly moved away from the daily war crimes and crimes against humanity of Israel, which is the oppressor here.If you're rightly outraged about the crimes of 2 days ago, then you should be even more outraged that this has been happening continuously, and yet...there is a hear no evil, see no evil approach to discussing the truth about Israel and Palestine.

What do you think they should do? Carry on being wiped out in silence?

Or more importantly, what do you think they can do? What actions do you think are available to them, peaceful or otherwise? You agree with me their that their actions were understandable, and that's my position. Nothing more, nothing less.

Until we are prepared to talk about the last few decades of occupation and the devastation wrought upon the Palestinian people, then we're justifying the slaughter one way, whilst pretending it didn't happen.

[OnTheRight]

Hopefully Israel bomb Hamas out of existence.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

What do you think they should do? Carry on being wiped out in silence?

This is a really tough question because I'm looking at it as a realist/pragmatist: their options are not "be wiped out in silence" vs "do something about it" ... and if the options are "Be wiped out" vs "Murder some random kids and tourists first, then still be wiped out, probably faster than ever" I'm going to have to say that yes the former is preferable.

If I thought they could make a difference to their situation my answer might be different. If they could target military or political targets my answer might be different. But that's not what has happened. They've killed innocent people, and achieved absolutely nothing in the process other than a swifter and more explosive demise.

The impulse to take action is one thing but the details of the actions that have actually been taken are another entirely ... again just not justifiable, not in any world.

There's no disagreement on the political principles at play - I'm certainly not a Zionist, I don't think Israel should have happened... it was at best short sighted and at worst knowingly and defiantly disastrous, and I'm of the belief that it was done 90% for strategic reasons and not because of ancestral lands of religious significance.

[bitontheslide]

i've said it before, but i will say it again, because it needs repeating. As long as Israel has existed, the countries that surround Israel have wanted the complete destruction of Israel and it's people. For it's entire existence, Israel has had to fight to protect itself from utter destruction. Prior to that, Hitler wanted to exterminate all jews and killed millions of them.

Do people really think that Israel should sit back and accept that hate and aggression without trying to protect itself?

[The Slim Reaper]

If this was printed in one of our own newspapers, there would be a parliamentary discussion and near universal condemnation.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i've said it before, but i will say it again, because it needs repeating. As long as Israel has existed, the countries that surround Israel have wanted the complete destruction of Israel and it's people. For it's entire existence, Israel has had to fight to protect itself from utter destruction. Prior to that, Hitler wanted to exterminate all jews and killed millions of them.

Do people really think that Israel should sit back and accept that hate and aggression without trying to protect itself?

So much defence.

[LeatherTrumpet]

[The Slim Reaper]

[Liam-]

Let’s conveniently ignore all of the monstrosities Israel is committing against the Palestinian people on a near daily basis and pretend Israel is an innocent victim, the power and influence Israel has over the west, enough to brainwash whole governments to back up their genocide and general human rights violations, is terrifying

[LeatherTrumpet]

[Soldier Boy]

Me and a couple of pals on a road trip once had an hour-long chat with a random bloke in a pub in Newcastle who, with a firey passion, desperately wanted Newcastle to be annexed by Scotland. He was absolutely wasted but his arguments were sound enough. So this map seems right. Not to keen on having to dig out my passport for a trip to Skye though .

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

Let’s conveniently ignore all of the monstrosities Israel is committing against the Palestinian people on a near daily basis and pretend Israel is an innocent victim, the power and influence Israel has over the west, enough to brainwash whole governments to back up their genocide and general human rights violations, is terrifying

I agree but then again, the people pointing this out so adamantly about Israel are often the ones who are/were happy enough to paint Ukraine as an innocent nation of angel babies.

That's not to say that Russia isn't the clear aggressor in Ukraine, just that the rewriting of Ukrainian politics has been ... well, at the very least interesting.

Also as above - Israel doesn't have "power and influence" over the west, Israel is a keystone in Western power over the Middle East. That's why they put it there. AGAIN though this is all irrelevant when considering the plights of Palestinian AND Israeli civilians... which is what should be the real humanitarian concern. Not which side is the "good guys". There literally are no good guys. Anywhere. There never have been.

[Livia]

At the end of WW2, Jews who survived the Holocaust were going to Israel. That's what kept many of them going. It doesn't matter what other nations said, the Jews were going home to Israel and no international treaty, no mandate would have altered that.