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Brillopad · 20-03-2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i will explain clearly why i think the cis description is entirely unnecessary. It is only in existence because the trans community want to be classified without distinction as being men or women. So they want unequivocal inclusion in those categories. The reality is that there is a distinction, so they have created the term cis and put everyone else in that bucket. So, in effect, they have removed the simple status of man and woman from those who were born as such and identify as such. With that being the basis of the distinction, it's just not going to be acceptable to the majority.

Exactly. I just looked up a definition that said "Many transgender people prefer 'cisgender' to biologicial, genetic, real or male or female because of the implications of those".

Basically it is all about their feelings and to hell with how birth women feel. Not having it personally.

Marsh. · 20-03-2018, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Exactly. I just looked up a definition that said "Many transgender people prefer 'cisgender' to biologicial, genetic, real or male or female because of the implications of those".

Basically it is all about their feelings and to hell with how birth women feel. Not having it personally.

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

Marsh. · 20-03-2018, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I was explaining why I personally have a negative association with the word because before I ever heard the word on it's own as a descriptor or whatever it was put forward to me as being an insult

I knew what the words Irish and Hetero were and meant on there own before I ever heard them put together with an insult, if you get what I mean?

This is just my own personal experience btw, i'm not speaking for anyone else in here

Oh, I understand that. But now that you do know the word and what it means, do you still feel the same way?

Niamh. · 20-03-2018, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Oh, I understand that. But now that you do know the word and what it means, do you still feel the same way?

I think for me I'm always going to associate it with negativity now. Other than people in here explaining what it means, I've never heard it in an actual sentence other than a negative one

AnnieK · 20-03-2018, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

That could work both ways though - there needs to be some middle ground. I have no idea what that could be but as it stands there is always going to be a group who feel hard done to by this - who gets to decide who that is or how is could be addressed is impossible to imagine with such an emotive topic

Niamh. · 20-03-2018, 03:59 PM

Basically the way I see it, transexuals have been around for a very longtime and women as far as I can tell haven't had any issues with that, what seems to be causing problems now is the whole Self ID issues and demanding access to womens prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms etc transwomen who have spent most of their lives as men and have biological advantages over women wanting to be able to compete against women in sport, sports which are sex segregated because of these biological advantages like MMA for example which is not just a physical contact sport but a combat sport, it's ****ing dangerous but there seems to be little regard for womens safety for fear of being seen as a bigot, that our safety and privacy is now seen as less important.

Brillopad · 20-03-2018, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

If not all parties can be placated on this - then those born as women have priority in my opinion. We were born women so why would those that feel like women get priority. It makes no sense.

My biggest issues however are with self-identification due to the privacy and safety issues. That is not happening - women will NOT accept it. And woe betide those forcing it on us when the inevitable happens - and it will. There will be an uproar.

Twosugars · 20-03-2018, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnieK

That could work both ways though - there needs to be some middle ground. I have no idea what that could be but as it stands there is always going to be a group who feel hard done to by this - who gets to decide who that is or how is could be addressed is impossible to imagine with such an emotive topic

Exactly.
I fear people will get bullied and hurt before it's all settled. But it has to be settled. I don't see trans issue going away, if anything it will become more prominent. This is the next big issue after settling the homosexuality issue.
I think the number of people questioning their gender will grow as now it is "allowed" by society until it reaches a natural plateau. We need a way of dealing with it.

Maru · 20-03-2018, 04:11 PM

Personally, I think when it comes to multiculturalism and the way our societies are constructed now, we have to all realize now, we can't all have our cake and eat it too. For example, with regards to this conversation, some folk will find our use of language or cultural values oppressive, and tolerating that is the new civility... this is just something we have to individually accept and tolerate, that some other people will see things a different way. It doesn't mean we have to lapse on our own belief systems and in our own judgements, but I think this is the new "us" in that sense, that we will have to be civil towards ideologies that don't match our own.

There is no shared identity, in the sense that we can all agree on each others positions on things, etc anymore, and get along like a 40's TV episode... as I see it, humility and civility go hand in hand... I'm OK to concede some areas, even OK to concede my "transphobia" if some folk desire to use a stricter definition... but I also don't think a transgender person should have to go through surgery and physical alter their being in order to fully integrate... I'm OK with sharing bathrooms with those folk as long as they attempt to pass, because our dress and our behaviors, those are markers... we know, ok we can expect this person is female. This is a universal code in a sense... but even making these concessions, I've already accepted that there will be folk who will be like "No, you want me to conform to X standard, that is way too far for me"... and that's what it is. Some people feel really strongly on these issues.. and you know, I have strong feelings too in some areas, and I'm not in the mindset to try to force this upon other folk. What I think and feel in my own time is my own business.. so I stand aside and let them people have their way... but to a certain point.

There are some truly hard edges in our society and we will have to come to a simplistic understanding of what that means for civility in the near future... in either case, I think our culture is about to change, our sense of co-joining national identity, even cultural identity (Western, Americanism, British, etc)... these are all about to be turned on their head. And that's OK if we all come out with a better understanding of where the other stands on their individual decisions in these terms... in the end, humility will have to be added to the recipe if we expect that there will be some kind of conjoined idea of "Us" ... that's where I feel a breaking point has occurred... anyway, I'm perfectly fine for people to yell at me cis cum queen if it helps the dust to settle just a little for them, I'll take it on the chin

...

Jamie89 · 20-03-2018, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Basically the way I see it, transexuals have been around for a very longtime and women as far as I can tell haven't had any issues with that

Very true

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

Coming back to the new legislation about self identifying, exactly how can this work if I can the day after the law is passed put on a mans suit and tie walk into some longstanding all men's club and they have to accept me? as it stands at the moment (and I didn't know this until this morning) under the equality any man dressed in female clothes can access women's changing rooms and toilets, I really don't think this has been thought through properly at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

, what seems to be causing problems now is the whole Self ID issues and demanding access to womens prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms etc transwomen who have spent most of their lives as men and have biological advantages over women wanting to be able to compete against women in sport, sports which are sex segregated because of these biological advantages like MMA for example which is not just a physical contact sport but a combat sport, it's ****ing dangerous but there seems to be little regard for womens safety for fear of being seen as a bigot, that our safety and privacy is now seen as less important.

These are the real issues, as far as I see it anyway, I wonder if having a thread specifically about the self ID issues would be a good idea?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maru

anyway, I'm perfectly fine for people to yell at me cis cum queen

I'm sure

(sorry couldn't help myself)

Withano · 20-03-2018, 05:23 PM

Cisgendered is a word that describes almost everybody in the world. Theres nothing offensive about it at all! You're literally getting offended by not being a minority.

Alf · 20-03-2018, 05:28 PM

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

Marsh. · 20-03-2018, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

Why would you use either when hetero and homo are words?

Withano · 20-03-2018, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

Homosexual is to gay men what transexual is to transmen
Heterosexual is to straight men what cisgendered is to non-trans men

Bent is on par with other homophobic, transphobic, racist slurs, and has nothing to do with standard terminology so youve missed the point by several miles.

jaxie · 20-03-2018, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

100% agree with this.

Marsh. · 20-03-2018, 05:43 PM

Old bitch. Short bastard. White trash. Straight scum.

Anything can be used as an insult. Doesn't make the original descriptions of old, short, white and straight anything more than they are.

Withano · 20-03-2018, 05:43 PM

Report cisphobia if you see it. Wouldnt get your hopes up though considering the relaxed approach to transphobia. As far as I know everyone on the forum is cisgendered, certainly everyone on the thread. This is such a non-issue, its laughable!

jaxie · 20-03-2018, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twosugars

True.

I had no idea before reading this convo, but it looks like women feel somehow threatened in all this. I don't pretend to undestand why, can only guess.

Could it be that women feel protective of their gender identity and hard fought-for rights and see transgender as another encroachment into their domain by men?

Finally the penny drops with someone male in this thread.

Alf · 20-03-2018, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Why would you use either when hetero and homo are words?

To describe somebody, just as you said the word cis is description (post 340)

Twosugars · 20-03-2018, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

knock yourself out

no, I mean it, knock yourself out

Marsh. · 20-03-2018, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alf

To describe somebody, just as you said the word cis is description (post 340)

But, again, heterosexual/homosexual are the comparative words to cisgender/transgender.

"Bent" is homophobic. But you know that and just fancied being facetious.