[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I don't think they know that Ireland has its own language.

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I get what your saying Jessica, but if i read German out of a book, my pronunciation is very near spot on....except for the V and W type mix. So with the recognised (usually) mix of V and W, it can generally be accepted that WHAT is pronounced VOT for example.
I know the rule in language translation is not an exact science, but how some rules are translated confuses me. My missus is Thai and trust me..trying to work out the pronunciation of their language..when the letters are there in front of me..is a head-banger.

:|
I will give you some examples
For the v sound
English: v
German: w
Irish: mh/bh

For the sh sound
English: sh
German: sch
Irish: s

Do you get it?

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

We don't have a boss country you freak.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

We don't have a boss country you freak.

its that kind of insubordination that leads to sanctions

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I get what your saying Jessica, but if i read German out of a book, my pronunciation is very near spot on....except for the V and W type mix. So with the recognised (usually) mix of V and W, it can generally be accepted that WHAT is pronounced VOT for example.
I know the rule in language translation is not an exact science, but how some rules are translated confuses me. My missus is Thai and trust me..trying to work out the pronunciation of their language..when the letters are there in front of me..is a head-banger.

Well German would be more similar to English than Irish to English as they come from the same family - Germanic

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

Well I recall giving the V sign to a group of Irish Celtic supporters and you should have heard the abuse I got

next time they will get the mh

from both hands

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

because they're just different I suppose, like when you translate Irish to English, If you literally translated every word it wouldn't make much sense eg.

Niamh is anim dom means Niamh is my name but word for word to English it means Niamh is name mine

[Big Brother Fan]

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

:|
I will give you some examples
For the v sound
English: v
German: w
Irish: mh/bh

For the sh sound
English: sh
German: sch
Irish: s

Do you get it?

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Big Brother Fan

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

just ignore them, not worth getting into another long winded getting no where scenario again!

[Big Brother Fan]

English no doubt has a slight influence on modern Irish.

But Irish didn't decend from Anglo-Saxon or anything like that, so developed differently.

[Niamh.]

There are Irish names that have been modified alright like Maeve was originally spelled Maebh but alot of people do still use the original spelling too. Also Neve (see Neve Campbell) is a modified version of my name

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

because they're just different I suppose, like when you translate Irish to English, If you literally translated every word it wouldn't make much sense eg.

Niamh is anim dom means Niamh is my name but word for word to English it means Niamh is name mine

I appreciate that Nianhxo, but its the pronunciation of the letters/symbols that i see as representing my language that the confusion arises. If you were to say that Niamh is anim dom was pronounced Ne-am is an-im dom then in what order or meaning is not the issue, as our pronunciation as per my reading of those symbols would be pretty much the same.

Difference in pronunciation should follow certain rules, eg:

Machine could be -

Mac-hin-e(sounds like tinny) or Mac-hine(sounds like wine) or as it is generally known Ma-sheen.

When it comes out sounding like something completly different then where did the original translation go wrong?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I appreciate that Nianhxo, but its the pronunciation of the letters/symbols that i see as representing my language that the confusion arises. If you were to say that Niamh is anim dom was pronounced Ne-am is an-im dom then in what order or meaning is not the issue, as our pronunciation as per my reading of those symbols would be pretty much the same.

Difference in pronunciation should follow certain rules, eg:

Machine could be -

Mac-hin-e(sounds like tinny) or Mac-hine(sounds like wine) or as it is generally known Ma-sheen.

When it comes out sounding like something completly different then where did the original translation go wrong?

I still don't really get what you mean at all, Irish was spoken in Ireland by Irish people so it wouldn't have needed to relate to English?

[Big Brother Fan]

Yeah mh/bh doesn't sound like a 'm' just for the sake of English, it just happend to be that way

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Yes i do Jessica, but the bit i dont get is that if for example, the Irish had their own symbols which formed words which when pronounced gave a certain sound....why then was that sound not translated exactly when converted to the symbols that the English speakers used?

Do you understand where my area of learning is trying to come from?

BTW dont bother responding to the numpties as its fuel on their fire. That's how decent serious discussions like this are spoilt....just ignore it.

I understand what you are saying but most languages just don't work like that. Irish is a very complicated language, it began as a very primitive language and progressed as with every other language. Irish people didn't start speaking English naturally though, it was forced on us, therefore the Irish language didn't have a chance to develop into what it would have. I think many people choose Irish names for their children as a dedication to the language and as a way of trying to keep it alive.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

I don't quite understand what you mean there? How do you mean translated for English speakers?

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

Yes but the English characters were just used as an alternative to the symbols, it wasn't supposed to have English pronunciation because it's not the English language.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

I have been looking on the web, and found that Irish probably descended from a language that used symbols called the Ogham(?) Alphabet. Its the same thing with the Chinese letters/symbols being completely different to what i would say is English letters for example ..A, B, C...
Those Ogham letters were translated to English letters and i think that it is there that the original problems occur which give us this anomaly.

Is that clearer..in a confusing way lol.

ah ok, I do get what you mean now, I don't know why it was done this way but it was the way it was done! As a Welsh person pointed out earlier they also have similar things in their language and I think Welsh would come from the same family as Irish in language terms. But like it was also pointed out other languages do things like that as well Spanish for example pronounce V as a B. H in Spanish is silent

[Big Brother Fan]

Irish and Welsh are both Celtic languages so they are slightly related

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

Yes but the English characters were just used as an alternative to the symbols, it wasn't supposed to have English pronunciation because it's not the English language.

It doesnt have to have English pronunciation....the Ogham symbols would be pronounced as the Irish would say it....but when they were then copied/translated from Ogham to English symbols ( a, b, c, etc) why was the English symbols not used to give the same sound?

So..the Ogham symbol for the sound which gives Vee, would be translated to the English symbol which gives Vee, which is V.
What numpty..back in the day..in a place far far away....oops sorry, thats another story....translated the Ogham alphabet to the English alphabet and buggered it all up?

[Big Brother Fan]

Because it went from Ogham to written Gaeilge ages before English was brought here