[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

There ARE genuine tragic cases, and I grieve just as much as anyone for innocent children and genuine refugees, and - yes - something must be worked out to help these genuine refugees, but - I'm sorry - the pic above which Arista posted, and a thousand others, are telling by the fact that they are 99.99% YOUNG MEN.

The GREAT MAJORITY of these 'refugees' are flooding Europe through 'ASPIRATION' not 'DESPERATION'.

I'm sorry, but it is a fact.

And it is another fact that the UK CANNOT accommodate ALL those desiring to come here - no matter how much we may wish it, and no matter how many times we say that it is 'THE HUMANITARIAN' thing to do.

What is urgently needed is a thorough vetting procedure to ensure that all the fit young men who are fleeing from NOTHING are refused entry so that GENUINE refugees CAN be allowed entry into the UK with all the help we can - then - afford to give them.

Sorry.

Exactly!Where are all these refugee families in this picture?
There needs to be direct contact with countries like Syria with genuine refugees so that the people we do take in are the ones that need the help rather than just taking in economic migrants and ISIS members.

[MTVN]

Even if we accept the 'economic migrants' argument, it cannot be too hard to work out those from the genuine refugees. Those coming from Syria are clearly refugees and we have taken barely any while countries like Germany and Sweden take thousands. I also have sympathy for countries like Hungary and Macedonia who are having to bear the brunt of this influx when they are impoverished countries themselves and we twiddle our thumbs. The UK - and the EU at large - response to this has been an absolute shambles when this is precisely the situation where we should see the benefit of our common European project

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Even if we accept the 'economic migrants' argument, it cannot be too hard to work out those from the genuine refugees. Those coming from Syria are clearly refugees and we have taken barely any while countries like Germany and Sweden take thousands. I also have sympathy for countries like Hungary and Macedonia who are having to bear the brunt of this influx when they are impoverished countries themselves and we twiddle our thumbs. The UK - and the EU at large - response to this has been an absolute shambles when this is precisely the situation where we should see the benefit of our common European project

There has been so much bad press toward immigration that even justifiable cases are sneered at these days. Its always the same, we seem to be incapable as a nation of being measured in our reactions.

If Europe focussed its attention on the main immigrant entry points, then the immigrants that we eventually see here will all have justifiable reasons for being here, and their numbers quantifiable

It does no one any good to behave and react like headless chickens

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Even if we accept the 'economic migrants' argument, it cannot be too hard to work out those from the genuine refugees. Those coming from Syria are clearly refugees and we have taken barely any while countries like Germany and Sweden take thousands. I also have sympathy for countries like Hungary and Macedonia who are having to bear the brunt of this influx when they are impoverished countries themselves and we twiddle our thumbs. The UK - and the EU at large - response to this has been an absolute shambles when this is precisely the situation where we should see the benefit of our common European project

...good post Matt...

..I think if it can ever be thought that anything positive could happen with the death of a child or anyone else...it's that now with the tragic death and images of Aylan Kurdi, the refugees are no longer 'nameless and faceless' so they can be 'humanised' and that I think has been a thing before..that it's so much more easy for government to dither etc with faceless and nameless people..no more passing of bucks/blame. finger pointing etc and just action hopefully and the foundations of a solution...

[arista]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Even if we accept the 'economic migrants' argument, it cannot be too hard to work out those from the genuine refugees. Those coming from Syria are clearly refugees and we have taken barely any while countries like Germany and Sweden take thousands. I also have sympathy for countries like Hungary and Macedonia who are having to bear the brunt of this influx when they are impoverished countries themselves and we twiddle our thumbs. The UK - and the EU at large - response to this has been an absolute shambles when this is precisely the situation where we should see the benefit of our common European project

Yes now the PM has said he will take more from Syria
as they have no nation to return to

[LeatherTrumpet]

70 odd men women and children die a horrific death in a lorry - no image

1 wee boy washed up on a beach - many images


interesting the different reactions

[arista]

Originally Posted by smudgie

It's a right old mess.
Hungary seem to have the right idea, making sure people are legally allowed to travel before letting them on their way.
Perhaps if the borders were put back it would put people off risking their lives and their kids lives crossing the sea.
Time to look closer to home for a solution, perhaps on their own Continent, there must be some safe havens surely.

But as soon as they tried that the Illegals
ran back to the train and refused to move, yesterday


So although Hungary wants to Register them
they refused.
As it well known if they go to Germany they get
Euro Passports
and then can go onto England.

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

70 odd men women and children die a horrific death in a lorry - no image

1 wee boy washed up on a beach - many images


interesting the different reactions

YES LT
that Lorry was Far Worse

[arista]

Look at all the Cameras rush in
its all for TV News and Newspaper Frontpages

[Kizzy]

Our govt have a hard time humanising our own children in need, they are well aware of how their actions have impacted on the world, they're not dithering because they don't know they're stalling because they do.
The misinformation and the fear generated in the press has filtered through there and yet there is this image of little Aylan that's pricked the public consciousness and burst the apathetic bubble. He's not the first there have been hundreds washing up on shorelines for months, it's only now the pressure from other countries has become so great the UK has been forced to act hence the swing to the humanitarian angle.

[LeatherTrumpet]

and if we put up a sign saying "all welcome" many more images like that wee boy will be published

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

and if we put up a sign saying "all welcome" many more images like that wee boy will be published

So what's the answer, carry on ignoring the issue?
That's not an option any longer, the pressure is on the EU to act, we're not responding with 'all welcome' we're not responding at all compared with other countries.

[MTVN]

[arista]

The Good thing The PM will do
is take familys Direct from camps in Syria via UN
not the Illegal way.

The PM is about to speak Live from Portugal

[arista]

Hungary does not want Muslims
staying there.

Thats against the Rules

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I find Some Irish people to be extremely racist and xenophobic

Looks like we're going to be increasing the number of refugees we're taking in x 3 times now, still not loads but any increase is positive

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just can't with this ****, from people who have the gall to call others less than human. Most of these are normal people who were living just fine in their own countries until their world was destroyed. Our countries didn't just play "a part" in that destruction, they are at the very heart of it, and yet it's excuse after excuse for why we can't do more to help them. Selfishness, greed and paranoia. That's our world now.

Let's face it, the world is crumbling. It has a couple of centuries left in it at absolute ****ing maximum, so yeah, I think we can afford to spend the time we have left helping others to live their lives today rather than rejecting them in some desperate and hopeless scrabble to "have more for ourselves" tomorrow.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Even if we accept the 'economic migrants' argument, it cannot be too hard to work out those from the genuine refugees. Those coming from Syria are clearly refugees and we have taken barely any while countries like Germany and Sweden take thousands. I also have sympathy for countries like Hungary and Macedonia who are having to bear the brunt of this influx when they are impoverished countries themselves and we twiddle our thumbs. The UK - and the EU at large - response to this has been an absolute shambles when this is precisely the situation where we should see the benefit of our common European project

I think it was the Czech leader who said that the main problem is that the EU is lying and than around 95% of the migrants are economic

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I think it was the Czech leader who said that the main problem is that the EU is lying and than around 95% of the migrants are economic

So theyy are leaving their homes and paying smugglers 1000s because they're poor?...

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So theyy are leaving their homes and paying smugglers 1000s because they're poor?...

The Hungarian opposition leader said that many of them appear to be (by their attire, mobiles and amount paid to travel) a lot wealthier than the average Hungarian!

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The Hungarian opposition leader said that many of them appear to be (by their attire, mobiles and amount paid to travel) a lot wealthier than the average Hungarian!

So they're richer than most people in the countries they're risking their lives to get into..........makes sense

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

The Hungarian opposition leader said that many of them appear to be (by their attire, mobiles and amount paid to travel) a lot wealthier than the average Hungarian!

Or... normal people trying not to get killed?

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Or... normal people trying not to get killed?

Is it not more about the people who are bringing them. If the smugglers did not exist perhaps people would not leave?

[Kizzy]

If the smugglers did not exist would the people in that area still be under threat?

[MTVN]

So on the one hand the vast majority of them are economic migrants (i.e. fleeing poverty) but on the other many of them are quite wealthy? Why would the EU lie as well, if 95% of them were economic migrants that seems exactly the sort of thing they would want to be known if it gives a reason for countries to not have to take very many

Although I said it can't be hard to work out who is a refugee, I suppose there is a difficulty about when someone goes from being a refugee to an 'economic migrant'. How bad does your country have to be to qualify as the former? Surely people would concede that those from Syria and Libya are refugees? A lot of African migrants are from Eritrea which has North Korean levels of oppression but are they refugees? What about those from Sudan? The definitions can be blurred quite easily. I think Cameron has made a sensible start by pledging to accept more from refugee camps within Syria itself but there is no simple solution here.