[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm guessing some people in this thread would be a lot more sympathetic if the IDS weren't killing people on benefits because who cares about vulnerable people on benefits amirite? They're just parasites at the end of day aren't they so who cares if they're being erroneously taken off benefits they need to live and put in harm's way? They're just dole dossers and they deserve what they get because I pay taxes and that means I can pass judgement on my 'lessers' with a clean conscience.

The protesters didn't pose any kind of physical threat to the officials, the only threat they posed was that they wanted to delay them from their next appointment. These officials deserve to know the negative impact their murderous decisions are having, being called a murderer is a lot more civil than some of the more 'civilised and obviously better people' would have if they lost a loved one to the IDS' awful decisions.

Excellent points all through,sadly lost on this thread.
I agree with every word you say.
I wasn't going to comment again but you are right as to how some see those on benefits and who also ignore the fact that IDS rarely if ever allows himself to be challenged or really take part in an in depth interview.

When people are dismissed and treated as if they are absolutely nothing by anyone so called democratically elected whose real purpose should be to serve, not dictate to an electorate,then frustration and anger will become evident towards such a 100% undeserving individual such as IDS.

I am proud my Cousin took part although it surprised me, however tramping people into the ground they walk on as IDS has done to the sick and disabled,then ignoring even those who work in the care and support of the most vulnerable will inevitably in the end, bring out the worst in people.
Even more sadly and wrong,is the way having power just barely,has brought out the extreme worst of not only IDS but a good number in this rotten govt.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Excellent points all through,sadly lost on this thread.
I agree with every word you say.
I wasn't going to comment again but you are right as to how some see those on benefits and who also ignore the fact that IDS rarely if ever allows himself to be challenged or really take part in an in depth interview.

When people are dismissed and treated as if they are absolutely nothing by anyone so called democratically elected whose real purpose should be to serve, not dictate to an electorate,then frustration and anger will become evident towards such a 100% undeserving individual such as IDS.

I am proud my Cousin took part although it surprised me, however tramping people into the ground they walk on as IDS has done to the sick and disabled,then ignoring even those who work in the care and support of the most vulnerable will inevitably in the end, bring out the worst in people.
Even more sadly and wrong,is the way having power just barely,has brought out the extreme worst of not only IDS but a good number in this rotten govt.

Thanks for staying Joey, you know I'd go crazy without you
I'm proud of your cousin too it's an integral part of living in a democracy for public to voice their feelings, be heard and be responded to.
There seems to be a distinct lack of responses lately to anyone relating to anything. You'll see more than most things snuck in, passed without debate and rushed through.
Hunt threatened yesterday to go 'atomic' on jr doctors, so basically he's suggesting they agree or it's happening regardless... Is this in your opinion democratic or autocratic?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Keep quoting percentages all you like. That is the method of democracy that we have in this country. Sour grapes is all i see in this thread, no hint of respecting democracy that is LAW within our country.

I am afraid that the message from certain posts on here is perfectly clear; that that NO yob behaviour or name calling or violence is wrong if it is carried out by Left Wingers and other subversives, against people they deem to be Right Wing.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am afraid that the message from certain posts on here is perfectly clear; that that NO yob behaviour or name calling or violence is wrong if it is carried out by Left Wingers and other subversives, against people they deem to be Right Wing.

I haven't seen anyone advocating violence, there wasn't a survey of the protesters to garner how they voted in the last election either so it can't be presumed they are right or left leaning.
Their grievance is with this policy and the minister currently under investigation only.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I haven't seen anyone advocating violence, there wasn't a survey of the protesters to garner how they voted in the last election either so it can't be presumed they are right or left leaning.
Their grievance is with this policy and the minister currently under investigation only.

My cousin actually voted UKIP, only because of the belief that was the best assured way to get an EU referendum.
However the intense dislike for IDS and the policies of this govt towards the sick,disabled and most vulnerable provoked another strong emotion.

Hardly left wing at all but some will still generalise and indeed insult too.Without having full relevant information too Kizzy.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I haven't seen anyone advocating violence, there wasn't a survey of the protesters to garner how they voted in the last election either so it can't be presumed they are right or left leaning.
Their grievance is with this policy and the minister currently under investigation only.

This thread was NOT about IDS's policy or any wrongdoing he may be guilty of. It was SPECIFICALLY about the 'warm reception' which he received in Peckham - to quote your own words - so all the copy-pasta in the world on anything else is irrelevant.

Violence does not have to be 'physical' - it can be implied, harrassment, vocal threat, intimidation, and a host of other forms, and my posts, AND others, dealt specifically with the those UNLAWFUL aspects of the said 'warm reception', but this is something which you and others have denied or lessened, or mitigated, or deflected. This may not strictly be DIRECTLY 'advocating' such violence, but it is condoning it nonetheless.

As for: "there wasn't a survey of the protesters to garner how they voted in the last election either so it can't be presumed they are right or left leaning."
This too is totally irrelevant, because I said - "Left Wingers and other subversives" and 'subversives' is the key word, because breaking the laws of this country to try to impose your will IN THE FACE OF DEMOCRATIC opportunity, is subversive.

As stated many times previously, any grievance which citizens of this country has with any government minister or his policies, can be addressed via the ballot box or by PEACEFUL ORDERLY time-honoured protest - NOT by UNLAWFUL mob rule and violence.

You REALLY have NO argument with which to counter the TRUTH of what I and others are stating here, but - as usual - you will all ignore that truth and argue anyway.

[smudgie]

Well, as a sick, disabled vulnerable person I would be interested in his views, he could come and have a quiet cuppa with me and explain his policies in more depth.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This thread was NOT about IDS's policy or any wrongdoing he may be guilty of. It was SPECIFICALLY about the 'warm reception' which he received in Peckham - to quote your own words - so all the copy-pasta in the world on anything else is irrelevant.

Violence does not have to be 'physical' - it can be implied, harrassment, vocal threat, intimidation, and a host of other forms, and my posts, AND others, dealt specifically with the those UNLAWFUL aspects of the said 'warm reception', but this is something which you and others have denied or lessened, or mitigated, or deflected. This may not strictly be DIRECTLY 'advocating' such violence, but it is condoning it nonetheless.

As for: "there wasn't a survey of the protesters to garner how they voted in the last election either so it can't be presumed they are right or left leaning."
This too is totally irrelevant, because I said - "Left Wingers and other subversives" and 'subversives' is the key word, because breaking the laws of this country to try to impose your will IN THE FACE OF DEMOCRATIC opportunity, is subversive.

As stated many times previously, any grievance which citizens of this country has with any government minister or his policies, can be addressed via the ballot box or by PEACEFUL ORDERLY time-honoured protest - NOT by UNLAWFUL mob rule and violence.

You REALLY have NO argument with which to counter the TRUTH of what I and others are stating here, but - as usual - you will all ignore that truth and argue anyway.

'Warm reception' is how it was reported in the news item I offered for discussion, and the 'copy pasta' appropriate and relevant recent news items associated with this particular minister.

Things have to be found to be unlawful, shouting isn't unlawful. He was able to come and go without incident.

We have freedom of speech laws, if it is undemocratic to voice your opinion to a minister why have these if to act on them renders you labelled 'subversive'?
As validated at least one protester can be shown to not be traditionally left wing, maybe then accusations of left wing bias at the protest is supposition?

The truth is there was no violence, none.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Well, as a sick, disabled vulnerable person I would be interested in his views, he could come and have a quiet cuppa with me and explain his policies in more depth.

Good luck with that,he won't talk to anyone who can challenge him and in all interviews it is like an old pals act with the interviewer.
I would not be surprised he sets the tone of what can be asked and when.

He is the work and pensions secretary, on a Question time programme he was not even asked a single question as to benefits, the sick and disabled.

Actually however, what I would like to see him do is listen to those who have to go along to the obscene disabled work assessments and see exactly how they enact the policies the has put in place, the degrading treatment those sick and disabled in the main get there and not only them but carers or family/friends who go along with them.
I'd like to see him made to fill in every stupid and pathetically planned ESA form with its ridiculous questions for those who have to claim it.

There is a question there that says can you lift the equivalent of a pint of milk from one place to another.
I filled the form in for someone who suffers dementia and put 'no because it will end up going all over the floor'

However anyone answering that gets no points towards their claim for ESA for that question.
Idiotic waste of paper and time of those having to claim or who has to fill in such a stupidly laid out form.

So although you would likely get him for a 'free' cup of tea, I wouldn't expect to anything other as to answers, than 'that shouldn't happen' and 'he has seen no basis to anything like that',whatever you may raise with him, as if anyone questioning him should be seen as stupid too.

He has plenty sent to him from welfare organisations, charities, the CAB, and also independent carers,medical or otherwise and also family, friends and neighbours of people sick and disabled.
All of which just gets a curt dismissal usually on his behalf and rarely from him himself.
All he can do is hide behind his Parliamentary position, facing no one face to face unless he wants to and likely on his terms only too.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'Warm reception' is how it was reported in the news item I offered for discussion, and the 'copy pasta' appropriate and relevant recent news items associated with this particular minister.

Things have to be found to be unlawful, shouting isn't unlawful. He was able to come and go without incident.

We have freedom of speech laws, if it is undemocratic to voice your opinion to a minister why have these if to act on them renders you labelled 'subversive'?
As validated at least one protester can be shown to not be traditionally left wing, maybe then accusations of left wing bias at the protest is supposition?

The truth is there was no violence, none.

Kizzy, it is because of his policies he is so hated by people who cannot get fairness and compassion from him.
This thread is and should be about everything as to his policies, it is his policies that make him the individual he is as to Politics.
As in the post that Dezzy made earlier.
It is also why he gets the attacks he does too.

There was no violence,they were not inbred morons and you are right 100% in my view.

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Good luck with that,he won't talk to anyone who can challenge him and in all interviews it is like an old pals act with the interviewer.
I would not be surprised he sets the tone of what can be asked and when.

He is the work and pensions secretary, on a Question time programme he was not even asked a single question as to benefits, the sick and disabled.

Actually however, what I would like to see him do is listen to those who have to go along to the obscene disabled work assessments and see exactly how they enact the policies the has put in place, the degrading treatment those sick and disabled in the main get there and not only them but carers or family/friends who go along with them.
I'd like to see him made to fill in every stupid and pathetically planned ESA form with its ridiculous questions for those who have to claim it.

There is a question there that says can you lift the equivalent of a pint of milk from one place to another.
I filled the form in for someone who suffers dementia and put 'no because it will end up going all over the floor'

However anyone answering that gets no points towards their claim for ESA for that question.
Idiotic waste of paper and time of those having to claim or who has to fill in such a stupidly laid out form.

So although you would likely get him for a 'free' cup of tea, I wouldn't expect to anything other as to answers, than 'that shouldn't happen' and 'he has seen no basis to anything like that',whatever you may raise with him, as if anyone questioning him should be seen as stupid too.

He has plenty sent to him from welfare organisations, charities, the CAB, and also independent carers,medical or otherwise and also family, friends and neighbours of people sick and disabled.
All of which just gets a curt dismissal usually on his behalf and rarely from him himself.
All he can do is hide behind his Parliamentary position, facing no one face to face unless he wants to and likely on his terms only too.

Seems a bit silly having to answer a question that does not go towards the point system, unless it gives them a better overall picture.
I have to say I have no complaints, from the day my daughter rang up to enquire, everybody has been very kind and helpful. The lady explained in detail what would happen and what I needed to do so I found it quite simple.
The nurse that came out to see me was lovely. She told me I would hear from them in approx 8 weeks. They contacted my doctor for a report and we're happy to go along with what she told them.
I received a letter in just over three weeks telling me that money had been put in the bank and what my 4 weekly payment would be.
I didn't have to move from my chair.
Mine wasn't ESA it was PIP. I do realise that a lot of people are having bother with it all, but only fair to show the other side of the coin.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Kizzy, it is because of his policies he is so hated by people who cannot get fairness and compassion from him.
This thread is and should be about everything as to his policies, it is his policies that make him the individual he is as to Politics.
As in the post that Dezzy made earlier.
It is also why he gets the attacks he does too.

There was no violence,they were not inbred morons and you are right 100% in my view.

Thanks for that Joey I of course agree, his policies are some of the most dangerous in modern politics. Nobody who has had direct or indirect experience via family and friend could justify what they have done to the most vulnerable in our society.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thanks for that Joey I of course agree, his policies are some of the most dangerous in modern politics. Nobody who has had direct or indirect experience via family and friend could justify what they have done to the most vulnerable in our society.

I think off the top of my head I have assisted,either in going along to an assessment for ESA or helping fill in the form for it for somewhere around 90+ people now.
At the assessments,I witnessed only 15 where things went smoothly and where the person was treated with respect.

In my job in Law, I have assisted with cases for appeals of loss of benefits or benefits being cut,too many times to mention now, each one I have heard of and actually seen go to Court in the end as the last resort,( after the DWP waste time supposedly looking at it again but not even getting in touch with Doctors, Consultants or carers), I have yet to come across a single one where the appeal was not upheld either in full or in part.

Of course some run smoothly,and all goes well but I have found that to be the minority more likely than the norm.
Such as today,Frank Field who this govt and IDS like to commend for his welfare plans and work in the past and his ideas too for the future at times.
He has pointed out that sanctions are being made on a scale never before seen and there are people dropping out the welfare system with no record of what is happening to them no protection and probably falling into destitution.

What is IDS and the DWP response to that, 'there is no basis to the claims'.
Dismissed instantly without even looking at it.

Well done for anyone who gets their ESA sorted quickly and without hassle, the last one I just helped with for someone they were left waiting 13 weeks to get the decision.
The sad thing is for those who it all goes smoothly for,that should be the norm for everyone across all justified benefit claims and sadly its not the case at all, and its getting worse.
Even now moreso with the planned stopping of financial assistance by this govt. for those who are left at the end with no choice but to fight their case in Court.
Thereby removing under the greedy guise of austerity,rights to justice for benefit claimants.

[Kizzy]

Crikey! thanks for sharing that Joey, you must have seen countless tomes the frustration and hopelessness of those fighting tooth and nail against the system just to be heard I've been on ESA following an illness luckily for me by the time I was sent a letter to attend a WCA I was 99% recovered, had I not been I would be in the boat of having to prove myself as doctors opinions appear to count for nothing do they?
People like yourself will be a godsend for those who don't have the strength or knowledge to fight this and get the support they need, well done Joey you are one great guy! Anyone with you on their side is extremely lucky

There has got to be a point in this country where we say enough, you can't shrink our services any longer everything is being scaled back to bare essentials, how can we function as an efficient civilised society on a shoestring? Something has to give, communities are being broken down, families scattered. A decent standard of living is unobtainable for a growing number of families leading to record numbers of children growing up in poverty. I've never thought that there could be a breaking point.. But it's feeling ever closer :/.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm not disputing ANYTHING you've said about IDS or his policies Joey because I totally agree that he is abhorrent and his policies are unfair.

I have not said otherwise.

As for applauding Joey, I applaud anyone who I feel deserves applause, whether they are my pals or not, or whether they like me or not.

But the truth still remains that only one or two non-Labourites dare to post on here anymore - and I'm one of them.

Look back on most of these threads and you will see a very clear pattern of ping-pong.

I will say no more because I do not want banning.

I post my views whether anyone agrees or not, I avoid things like inbred moron generalisation andinsults and also personal attacks to other members however.
I have reached a point at times it is pointless I feel to even try to alter someones thinking as I don't believe some even listen to what I am saying.

That does not bother me in the slightest but I am member too and if I find anyone that agrees with my stance and opinion, then naturally I will support that view and even expand on what I have said to them with further debate with thembecause they are at least listening and will not come back with any uncalled for or unnecessary insults.

No one can dictate or should dictate where a thread goes as long as it stays on topic,you said IDS policies should 'not' be an issue on this thread.
I disagree absolutely with that, his policies are the full reason people get aggressive towards him and he invites that.
It doesn't make them 'inbred morons' and it also does not in my view make them wrong to get at him whenever the opportunity, rare opportunity too that is, even arises.

Also no one ever needs to worry about being banned if they stay within the rules and show a little respect even while disagreeing with other members.
With full respect.no need for terminologies that may not be acceptable to the person being termed or called something at all.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

it was an undemocratic mob

Non-violent protest is a key aspect of democracy.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I post my views whether anyone agrees or not, I avoid things like in bred moron insults and also personal attacks to other members however.
I have reached a point at times it is pointless I feel to even try to alter someones thinking as I don't believe some even listen to what I am saying.

That does not bother me in the slightest but I am member too and if I find anyone that agrees with my stance and opinion, then naturally I will support that view and even expand on what I have said to them with further debate with thembecause they are at least listening and will not come back with any uncalled for or unnecessary insults.

No one can dictate or should dictate where a thread goes as long as it stays on topic,you said IDS policies should 'not' be an issue on this thread.
I disagree absolutely with that, his policies are the full reason people get aggressive towards him and he invites that.
It doesn't make them 'inbred morons' and it also does not in my view make them wrong to get at him whenever the opportunity, rare opportunity too that is, even arises.

Also no one ever needs to worry about being banned if they stay within the rules and show a little respect even while disagreeing with other members.
With full respect.no need for terminologies that may not be acceptable to the person being termed or called something at all.

Thank you Joey I agree 100%

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Seems a bit silly having to answer a question that does not go towards the point system, unless it gives them a better overall picture.
I have to say I have no complaints, from the day my daughter rang up to enquire, everybody has been very kind and helpful. The lady explained in detail what would happen and what I needed to do so I found it quite simple.
The nurse that came out to see me was lovely. She told me I would hear from them in approx 8 weeks. They contacted my doctor for a report and we're happy to go along with what she told them.
I received a letter in just over three weeks telling me that money had been put in the bank and what my 4 weekly payment would be.
I didn't have to move from my chair.
Mine wasn't ESA it was PIP. I do realise that a lot of people are having bother with it all, but only fair to show the other side of the coin.

I work in a school for special needs and was asked to help families with English as a second language with their claim forms after all the negativity I have I read was pleasantly surprised at how organised it was, some families claims increased as well so it's not as bad as portrayed

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I work in a school for special needs and was asked to help families with English as a second language with their claim forms after all the negativity I have I read was pleasantly surprised at how organised it was, some families claims increased as well so it's not as bad as portrayed

...it's nice to hear that your experience has been more positive, Cherie...but just touching on that point of schools, this is something that we've/our school has been discussing a lot recently...we're having pupil referral unit after pupil referral unit closing down in our area, leaving nowhere for children who just can't fit into a main school environment to go...no school wants to not be able to take these children but sometimes just can't facilitate them, either in space they have or in finance because there's pretty much no help given/either financial or in the way of outside support/support they and their families so desperately need...also, so many referrals we're making being turned down/so those children and their families who are struggling so much and to the point of breaking in many cases...they're pretty much stuffed ..if any politician, not just IDS, but any politician had a child themselves who couldn't cope with main school environments ...would they ever think for one split second that some of the cutbacks made were ever acceptable...I doubt it...I can't imagine how it must feel to have a child who needs a more one to one type education because of their problems, to have places who could give them that being removed and to be told time and time again...no sorry, we would love to but just can't, it just isn't possible/no room at the inn I'm afraid because some children need their own classroom to themselves/a teacher to themselves etc or at least be in a very tiny group...

..there are still positive experiences, I agree..there are still some with us as well but sadly over the last few years, they've become fewer and fewer and are starting to become completely overshadowed by the more negative ones...for us it's just sad and frustrating but for those children and their families, it's so much more..they are not being given any, any chance in life...

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

The only reason I don't post in here anymore to be honest is that it is far too intense and hostile at times.It's not that I don't have opinions I do,lots of them,but there really seems no point anymore.

KAZ
do not let the Left Wingers
scare you away


I want Everyones view


TIBB is a Demo- cracy

Thats a great mini song for a Robot

[Ammi]

...as for the OP and that specific incident...I think most of us know that 'there is a right way and wrong way' to address things but there are also decisions made that are so completely detached from the reality of lives/the impacts of lives that sometimes that has to be actually seen by the decision makers..that people feel that they have to actually 'go up and say in someone's face'...look, we are real people here, can you see us...(not that I think sadly that it would make any difference at all..)...but I do understand those whose lives are so impacted or know people who have been... that they have to 'show themselves' ...

[Kizzy]

Thanks Ammi, yes that's the crux of it, there just doesn't seem to be a way out for many. It's not simply form filling that's the issue it's the restrictions in social care, childrens services, mobility, the cuts to adult mental health, transitions from DLA to PIP, WCA.. endless.
For months and months there have been reports of cuts and spokespersons crying out for support, peaceful protests in London and locally. It's only now that it has reached breaking point and that it's even noticed but to criticise, it's just really sad to see so little empathy shown to those who need a hand up not a boot in the face.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Thanks Ammi, yes that's the crux of it, there just doesn't seem to be a way out for many. It's not simply form filling that's the issue it's the restrictions in social care, childrens services, mobility, the cuts to adult mental health, transitions from DLA to PIP, WCA.. endless.
For months and months there have been reports of cuts and spokespersons crying out for support, peaceful protests in London and locally. It's only now that it has reached breaking point and that it's even noticed but to criticise, it's just really sad to see so little empathy shown to those who need a hand up not a boot in the face.

I don't think there is a lack of empathy, yes cuts are happening , but this demonstration was about form filling and being labelled "fit for work" and the change of system from DLA to PIP, this change has caused alot of needless stress for families as we only hear the negative stories in the media, families are frightened by what they hear, so as Smudgie said it's just showing the other side, that the system is not broken for everyone and in some case claimants are better off, no one is denying there haven't been shameful faults with the system but equally there have been success stories.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't think there is a lack of empathy, yes cuts are happening , but this demonstration was about form filling and being labelled "fit for work" and the change of system from DLA to PIP, this change has caused alot of needless stress for families as we only hear the negative stories in the media, families are frightened by what they hear, so as Smudgie said it's just showing the other side, that the system is not broken for everyone and in some case claimants are better off, no one is denying there haven't been shameful faults with the system but equally there have been success stories.

Balance and truth.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I don't think there is a lack of empathy, yes cuts are happening , but this demonstration was about form filling and being labelled "fit for work" and the change of system from DLA to PIP, this change has caused alot of needless stress for families as we only hear the negative stories in the media, families are frightened by what they hear, so as Smudgie said it's just showing the other side, that the system is not broken for everyone and in some case claimants are better off, no one is denying there haven't been shameful faults with the system but equally there have been success stories.

Filling the fit for work form in is the easy part, the work capability assessment is the issue.
There is a lack of empathy in general imo, mention the word welfare and the word that springs to mind as the most prevalent descriptor in the media is 'scrounger'.
I agree there will be those who have had a seemless transition I'm glad of course Smudgie did, yet is this representative?
It's not just welfare affected, it's swathes of cuts to vital services and resources leaving mentally and physically incapacitated stranded, on a national level how many people is it feasible to suggest have benefited form the cuts?