[Alf]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I do find it very sad that English people cannot embrace their flag like literally every other nation can do..

I can't imagine being called a bigot for hanging an Irish flag out my window

The same people are the ones proudly currently sporting a Ukraine flag whenever they get chance.

They're just hypocritical bullies with a touch of xenaphobia.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think he means the cultural left rather than the economic left so really he means "the liberal left" rather than socialist left... obviously socialism has nothing at all to do with this.

It's difficult to argue that liberalism doesn't come into the equation though. Objectively speaking there IS a sub-cultural element to these grooming gangs (namely, underlying attitudes and ideas about white girls and women that can be prominent in young Asian men) but there's a push to deny or not acknowledge that aspect for fear of being seen as racist, or similarly to the Trans debate, out of fear that acknowledging things that are exploited by actual bigots and racists is "adding fuel to the fire" or somehow aligning with those more extreme views.

if there had been less hesitancy to say "Yes, there are worrying views and attitudes propagating in these communities that need to be addressed" then these gangs might well have been identified and dismantled far earlier.

It appears to me that the vulnerable have always been a target and if you highlight one group then that encourages victims from other groups to come forward.

Look how victims of abuse by political figures, celebrities or the church gave been treated. What makes anyone think that the victims of organised gangs of any ethnicity would get treated fairly?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

Bigot, ah the battle cry of the Owen Jones society.

So the word bigot did not have a meaning prior to Owen becoming a columnist?

Whereas an accusation of being anti-English is really a generalised slur aimed at anyone who offers objectivity to a debate clearly.

Can I ask you what exactly it was that caused you to use that term? What is the definition of ' 'anti English'?

Personally with me wanting nationalisation of infrastructure and decent well paid jobs that would make me very pro English. But apparently not a's I get that term levelled at me too :/

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I had a look at this one, he was jailed as it was the last of a long line of convictions mostly for football violence, he was let down badly by the prison system though, he overdosed in prison


The judge said he was jailing Crehan because the offence was the latest in a long list of previous convictions, mainly for football-related violence.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=kevin+...ANNTA1&PC=LCTS

I know.

I said he was convicted for putting bacon on building and died in prison which is all true. I even gave you his name so you can go look it up yourself, which you did.

The point I was trying to make was that some people are dealt with by the law and some get let off.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So the word bigot did not have a meaning prior to Owen becoming a columnist?

Whereas an accusation of being anti-English is really a generalised slur aimed at anyone who offers objectivity to a debate clearly.

Can I ask you what exactly it was that caused you to use that term? What is the definition of ' 'anti English'?

Personally with me wanting nationalisation of infrastructure and decent well paid jobs that would make me very pro English. But apparently not a's I get that term levelled at me too :/

You certainly can ask me.

I called BOTS "anti English" because his post in here came across to me that being proud and supportive of England should be classed as a negative thing and something to be ashamed of.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

I know.

I said he was convicted for putting bacon on building and died in prison which is all true. I even gave you his name so you can go look it up yourself, which you did.

The point I was trying to make was that some people are dealt with by the law and some get let off.

If this was a first or even second offence he might have got off too. . There comes a point where if people keep coming in front of judges for various things eventually a custodial sentence is the only deterrent left.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think he means the cultural left rather than the economic left so really he means "the liberal left" rather than socialist left... obviously socialism has nothing at all to do with this.

It's difficult to argue that liberalism doesn't come into the equation though. Objectively speaking there IS a sub-cultural element to these grooming gangs (namely, underlying attitudes and ideas about white girls and women that can be prominent in young Asian men) but there's a push to deny or not acknowledge that aspect for fear of being seen as racist, or similarly to the Trans debate, out of fear that acknowledging things that are exploited by actual bigots and racists is "adding fuel to the fire" or somehow aligning with those more extreme views.

if there had been less hesitancy to say "Yes, there are worrying views and attitudes propagating in these communities that need to be addressed" then these gangs might well have been identified and dismantled far earlier.

Pretty sure he didn't mean anything other than using his crassness to try and bait.

However, liberalism is of more of the centre, not really the left, and even more importantly, whether you are of the left, centre, right, or any of the extremes, it should be universally accepted that none of those political leanings are exempt from sex traffickers, rapists, or paedophiles, so even pretending that it does is pretty cynically bad faith.

That said, I actually agree that maybe some fears exist, and an unintended consequence of that fear has been to provide cover for those committing heinous acts, just like fear of the powerful has protected wealthy or connected paedophiles. No one has said any differently. White Catholic priests were moved from place to place to give them continued access without accountability, so these structures/communities have always protected the abusers, so I also find it disingenuous when the same kind of folks that mocked and dismissed anything to do with metoo, suddenly find a group of abusers they are against (for some reason).

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

You certainly can ask me.

I called BOTS "anti English" because his post in here came across to me that being proud and supportive of England should be classed as a negative thing and something to be ashamed of.

How does that make him anti English then?...

All that says to me is that his opinion of Englishness is different to yours. That's not wrong he may feel your take on Englishness is anti English.

We all have a different perspective of what it means to be English.

Do you feel throwing bacon at a mosque is a good way to show how proud and supportive you are of England?

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How does that make him anti English then?...

All that says to me is that his opinion of Englishness is different to yours. That's not wrong he may feel your take on Englishness is anti English.

We all have a different perspective of what it means to be English.

Do you feel throwing bacon at a mosque is a good way to show how proud and supportive you are of England?

No, I wouldn't put bacon on any building.i'd put it in the frying pan and then eat it in a butty.

I used the bacon guy as an example of how easy the average citizen is to be locked up whilst people who turn a blind eye and cover up child rape go free. That's the only reason I brought the bacon guy up, it was as an example to make a point.

[The Slim Reaper]

A flag is a flag. I don't really see anyone on the right, especially the further you go, cowering away from either displaying it or fawning all over it, so not even sure what the suggestion means.

It's just pretty immature and cringey to attach identity to a piece of cloth based on an accident of birth, which remarkably, when replaced with a hijab (which unlike a flag, people wear for a reason - however much I personally may disagree with their reasoning), suddenly people understand.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

No, I wouldn't put bacon on any building.i'd put it in the frying pan and then eat it in a butty.

I used the bacon guy as an example of how easy the average citizen is to be locked up whilst people who turn a blind eye and cover up child rape go free. That's the only reason I brought the bacon guy up, it was as an example to make a point.

I doubt anyone would agree that not addressing a cover up especially one involving child abuse was right. And as far as I can see nobody does think that was right.
However disagreeing that someone with many assault charges shouldn't be dealt with still is not anti English.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I doubt anyone would agree that not addressing a cover up especially one involving child abuse was right. And as far as I can see nobody does think that was right.
However disagreeing that someone with many assault charges shouldn't be dealt with still is not anti English.

So you wanted a better example?

I did also add the guy who was sent down for taking a pee next to (not on) a war memorial. I thought that was usually a Ł80 on the spot fine?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

A flag is a flag. I don't really see anyone on the right, especially the further you go, cowering away from either displaying it or fawning all over it, so not even sure what the suggestion means.

It's just pretty immature and cringey to attach identity to a piece of cloth based on an accident of birth, which remarkably, when replaced with a hijab (which unlike a flag, people wear for a reason - however much I personally may disagree with their reasoning), suddenly people understand.

In my opinion the St George flag has become a symbol of something darker than national pride, it has been hijacked by those who treat it like the confederate flag. As a symbol of superiority, and due to this that's why I feel many can't associate with it.
However the love for England, the English and Englishness as a whole is just as strong.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

So you wanted a better example?

I did also add the guy who was sent down for taking a pee next to (not on) a war memorial. I thought that was usually a Ł80 on the spot fine?

That was if I remember right to turn the public against a protest against war. That said it has always been seen as a massive insult nationally to deface war memorials?
Dropping a cig butt will get you Ł100 fine. Insulting past service personnel? That I would have thought would be more serious.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In my opinion the St George flag has become a symbol of something darker than national pride, it has been hijacked by those who treat it like the confederate flag. As a symbol of superiority, and due to this that's why I feel many can't associate with it.
However the love for England, the English and Englishness as a whole is just as strong.

"A symbol of something darker"

That's what they think of the English flag, Cherie.

It's just your paranoia Kizzy.

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

In my opinion the St George flag has become a symbol of something darker than national pride, it has been hijacked by those who treat it like the confederate flag. As a symbol of superiority, and due to this that's why I feel many can't associate with it.
However the love for England, the English and Englishness as a whole is just as strong.

I completely agree with you, but something I don't understand, is that when the right loves the flags and holds all the power in this country, why people think it has to be hidden.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That was if I remember right to turn the public against a protest against war. That said it has always been seen as a massive insult nationally to deface war memorials?
Dropping a cig butt will get you Ł100 fine. Insulting past service personnel? That I would have thought would be more serious.

I don't know really, I don't think that should be a particularly criminal matter, yeah it's a foul thing to do but I don't think it crosses that boundary into being "actually serious". Defacing meaningfully (i.e. causing permanent damage or damage that will be hard to repair, breaking, toppling, spraypainting etc.) yes definitely but I don't think something that can be sorted with a bucket of soapy water should incur more than a fine.

[parmnion]

What sentence did the statue defacers of BLM get?

[bitontheslide]

this is why i find this thread so disingenuous. Alf openly supports radical groups that have weaponised the english flag for their own racial agenda, and then creates a thread such as this and pleads ignorance

[Alf]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

this is why i find this thread so disingenuous. Alf openly supports radical groups that have weaponised the english flag for their own racial agenda, and then creates a thread such as this and pleads ignorance

Alf supports Alf and nobody else. Stop making bullish!t up about me or I'll sue you.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Alf

"A symbol of something darker"

That's what they think of the English flag, Cherie.

It's just your paranoia Kizzy.

No I think you are ... You are putting too much emphasis on the flag... it's not England, it's not the people or the places it doesn't even stand for anything.

This I why I feel more strongly about the memoral. It actually has some history and meaning. I can connect to it more than a flag.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Alf

You certainly can ask me.

I called BOTS "anti English" because his post in here came across to me that being proud and supportive of England should be classed as a negative thing and something to be ashamed of.

'
BOTs is Scottish though I woudlnt expect him to wrap himself in St George

I agree with you about the flag, if you can wave round yellow and blue like they did at the Concert for Ukraine there is no reason not to be able to wave around your own flag without being called a bigot

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

No I think you are ... You are putting too much emphasis on the flag... it's not England, it's not the people or the places it doesn't even stand for anything.

This I why I feel more strongly about the memoral. It actually has some history and meaning. I can connect to it more than a flag.

I never once brought a flag up in this thread until someone else did. This thread has nothing to do with a flag.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know really, I don't think that should be a particularly criminal matter, yeah it's a foul thing to do but I don't think it crosses that boundary into being "actually serious". Defacing meaningfully (i.e. causing permanent damage or damage that will be hard to repair, breaking, toppling, spraypainting etc.) yes definitely but I don't think something that can be sorted with a bucket of soapy water should incur more than a fine.

To me they are a symbol of national pride, to me it's worse than pissing on the flag.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Do you feel throwing bacon at a mosque is a good way to show how proud and supportive you are of England?

It's just littering. He shouldn't have ended up in front of a judge at all.

(Maybe just a mandatory fine and some litter picking or something)