[Sticks]

I need to add, that I do support the intention in the equality bill to legalise breastfeeding in England and Wales.

I am not against it in principal, just that I am not in a position because of where I work to advocate an action which can be considered unlawful.

[Sticks]

I thought I would ask the National Childcare Trust about the legality of this and got this response

You asked our experts the following question on the 30/06/2008 16:40:
This is kind of a general query, sort of, and technically I am not affected, but it was something that has been discussed on various internet forums I am a member of. I read in the press about the new equality bill to be introduced in parliament. In various reports it says under current laws, women who breastfeed in places such as restaurants or bars can be charged under public order or indecency legislation.

The question therefore is, does this mean that it is currently illegal for women to breastfeed in public in England. (I realise Scotland is more enlightened on this)

To which Louise Hale has responded with:
Hi Graeme Thanks for your question about breastfeeding and the law.

As you will appreciate, we are not legal experts so can not really interpret the technicalities of law.

However, I do understand where you are coming from.

As I understand the situation, (and I have no legal background), there is no actual law that states that breastfeeding itself is illegal in public, however, there are other laws such as public order offences or indecency offences, that could be used to try to challenge a woman who is breastfeeding in public - should someone have the urge to try. New legislation is in the pipeline to give women in England the legal right to breastfeed and this should help to clarify the situation for everyone. Hope this helps.

Louise - Antenatal

That so far is the best I can get from experts, although there is the caveat that they are not legal experts.

So in theory a police officer could arrest a nursing mother under those offences.

Am not sure if an indecency offence can be dealt with by a police caution, if they did the mother would have to sign the sex offenders list, which would mean social services would most likely remove the child.

We have already seen from an earlier posting that a police officer did caution a woman in 2005, so the advice as I see it still stands.

Don't do it, you may be in trouble from the law if you are in England

As stated the law is different and more enlightened in Scotland

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks

Don't do it, you may be in trouble from the law if you are in England

Ridiculous - I say do it, regardless of the law.

Furthermore, you cannot be charged with public order/indecency charges by breastfeeding if you have the nipple covered, which - by the very nature of breast-feeding - it will be. So it's not against the law.

[_Audrey]

Originally posted by Bubbles
I've done it a few time but I wouldnt just whip them out in public for the sake of it. There are tops with secret panels that hide you while your baby feeds. When you breast feed a baby you mostly do demand feeding where you feed when the baby is hungry rather than every 3-4 hours with bottle feeding. So you dont have that much of a routine, you cant schedule your day around when your baby needs to feed.

Why should women feel ashamed for feeding their baby? When you are in the maternity ward you are almost made to feel guilty if you dont breast-feed your baby (as was the case with my 1st) so why is there so much negative feeling towards something so natural?

Can I just point out that my sister feeds on demand, but with a bottle. Not all bottle feds are done by routine!

But yeah, I think it's perfectly fine. It must be different in Scotland because most places I go there's signs saying "You can breastfeed here" etc.

[AngRemembered]

Technically you could be done, but it really would be some stupid jobs worth to actually take this further than a quiert reminder.

Most woman will be conscious enough of exposing breasts in public (yes believe it or not) as breasts when functional like this is not considered in the slightest sexy or nice, to the woman carrying milk filled breats, its the equivalent of a guy wanting to flash his abnormally swollen 'thingy' in public it might be bigger but embarrasment would soon stop you guys.

However there are exceptions and for these few thats why there is a public decency law, and rightly so IMO, but if ever this went to a court i for one would would be very shocked indeed, as the majority of woman in that position would be mortified to have gained the attention anyway.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren
Ridiculous - I say do it, regardless of the law.

Furthermore, you cannot be charged with public order/indecency charges by breastfeeding if you have the nipple covered, which - by the very nature of breast-feeding - it will be. So it's not against the law.

But

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Technically you could be done, but it really would be some stupid jobs worth to actually take this further than a quiert reminder.

SNIP

Originally posted by Angiebabe
IMO, but if ever this went to a court i for one would would be very shocked indeed, as the majority of woman in that position would be mortified to have gained the attention anyway.

Lauren may have a technicality, this has been a legal defence used by the naked cowgirl in NYC, although that is American law.

However, would a mother know this, were she to be confronted? In my scenario, although I am not certain if this is correct police procedure, she is separated from her baby and offered the opportunity to accept a police caution. She is told if she does not, then she will be held until a magistrates hearing and her baby taken into care. In order to get out, she might go for the police caution, and if they go for an indecency offence, we have the sex offenders register leading to social services.

As some police forces are now under pressure to achieve targets, it is easy to see how an officer might see a mother feeding her baby as an easy target, if he is under pressure to make up quotas

As for it going to court, in a perverse sense, sort of, I would like to see that happen as it would at least clarify the law. The only problem is, if at magistrates you get someone who is against breastfeeding in public. (I believe Betty Boothroyd was against it and had it banned from the House of Commons)

Roll on the Equality Bill, that will finally make sure mothers are seen to be legal, whenever that happens.

[Sticks]

This is how the BBC reported that 2005 case

[Sticks]

Another case in the news


An official response to an earlier question from McDonalds

McDonalds HQ, if not down on the ground level are progressive and we must grant that.

However the law is the law

In England and Wales, because of other legislation being used, breastfeeding in public can be seen as unlawful. An enlightened policy at corporate HQ does not negate the law of the land.

Even if we think the law needs to be changed

Apart from advice given before, such as feed in the toilet to comply with the law, I would add "lobby your MP" to get the bill passed, and also amended as in it's presence form breastfeeding in public would become unlawful again after the baby was over six months old.

[Sticks]

It seems that there is an alternate legal opinion on the legality of breastfeeding in public given in this blog

In the many debates over recent months the same fallacies have been coming up time and time again, even from prominent people in the breastfeeding community who should know better.

The fallacies are that the forthcoming Single Equality Act will legalise breastfeeding in public, that Scotland has already passed legislation making breastfeeding legal, and that breastfeeding is illegal in the rest of the UK under indecency and public order laws. These inaccuracies are now so ingrained they have been recently quoted as fact in national news reports (Daily Mirror, and until the story was pulled when the errors were pointed out to them, even the BBC).

[Sticks]

More on the alternate legal opinion, this time from a government minister.

From the Huddersfield Daily Examiner

Protection for breastfeeding mums

July 21 2008 by Our Correspondent, Huddersfield Daily Examiner

LIKE most people, the Government believes that breast is best for babies. That is why we are doing everything we can to encourage mothers to breastfeed and to make sure that they are aware of its benefits.

But, for many mothers, the uncertainty surrounding where they can breastfeed is a real deterrent. Babies do not get hungry to order and mothers have to be confident that they can feed their infants in a café, restaurant or shop without the embarrassment of having the owner ask them to stop.

In fact, this type of discrimination has been unlawful for women with babies of any age for more than thirty years, and the mother could challenge the owner under the Sex Discrimination Act. We strengthened this Act with extra 'maternity' protection, which means that if the baby is less than six months old the mother could also challenge the owner on the grounds of her maternity.

Some people also think that women can be charged with indecency for breastfeeding in a public place. This is, I am glad to say, utter nonsense and completely wrong.

But, as you can see from the above, the law is not as clear as it could be. People are unsure of their rights and their responsibilities in this area. That is why the Government will be using its forthcoming Equality Bill to make it crystal clear that it is simply not acceptable to shoo breastfeeding mothers and their babies out of places like coffee shops, public galleries and restaurants.

We hope that this will give women complete confidence that the law is on their side when they are breastfeeding their babies.

Barbara Follett

Deputy Minister for Women and Equality

As the minister says, the law seems confused, as is the media seems to be.

My earlier comments were based on what is reported to be the legal situation, and different authorities seem to have different opinions.

The media and the National Childbirth Trust seemed to indicate that breastfeeding in public can lead to the mother being charged under other legislation, such as indecency and public order offences. The blog and now a government minister says the bit about indecency is not so.

This still leaves the public order offence issue, even breach of the peace has been cited. (Norfolk case in 2005?)

If Breastfeeding in public is not unlawful, I have no objection. If there is a legal issue, I can not condone the breaking of the law.

So, with different legal opinions floating around, is it worth the risk south of the Scottish border until the law is clarified by new legislation.?

[Sticks]

Link to same letter on Government Equalities website

Response to a Number Downing Street 10 petition

[Sticks]

As I reflect on this, we have legal opinion from one blogger and a government minister saying it is not unlawful, yet various media saying a women can be charged on two separate grounds.

Even if a minister thinks it is not unlawful, that I do not think is enough. (Think how many ministers have been found to have acted unlawfully by judicial review)

I would like to see legislation, along the lines of that brought in by the Scottish parliament.

In a sort of perverse sense what would be interesting would be so see a woman to actually get arrested and charged, just for breastfeeding in public and taken to court or made to accept a police caution. Maybe a case where because she was breastfeeding in public, she is made to sign the sex offenders register and her baby is taken away by social services and possibly adopted out, (Worse case scenario)

It would help clarify the law, as sometimes the law is determined by case law.

If the women is acquitted, then it confirms it is not illegal, but if she is convicted, it might motivate the government to legislate to legalise it, in the same way they had to pass emergency legislation to allow anonymous witnesses to testify in court.

I do think though, if they took the baby away, although the mother would never get it back, her sacrifice would ultimately help others.

Would the CPS go for a prosecution?

If she was made to accept a police caution, how would things pan out, given what happened in the 2005 case.

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Sticks
Maybe a case where because she was breastfeeding in public, she is made to sign the sex offenders register and her baby is taken away by social services and possibly adopted out, (Worse case scenario)

Excuse me?! .... Did you just develop that in your head? The sex offenders register and loss of custody? That hasn't been mentioned?!

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Lauren

Excuse me?! .... Did you just develop that in your head? The sex offenders register and loss of custody? That hasn't been mentioned?!

My apologies, I did actually hint at that scenario in this earlier post on this thread

It was one of those crazy what ifs we sometime postulate when making a point.

The reason I came up with this, was because in the press talking about the equality bill, they were saying

Under current laws, women who breastfeed in places such as restaurants or bars can be charged under public order or indecency legislation.

source

Although according to one blogger's legal opinion, this is wrong.

Now my thinking was, if the indecency legislation was invoked, that would lead to a person having to sign the sex offenders register.

A government minister, in letters to the editor, (I posted a copy of it earlier in the thread) has said the bit about indecency is wrong as well.

However, my understanding is that law is determined either by case law or statute law, and no matter how well intentioned, a letter by a government minister, may not count, if someone disagrees with them.

Getting back to my really extreme scenario, it was hypothesising what kind of outcry in the media would happen were this actually to happen.

If that makes any kind of sense.

Personally, legal issues aside, I believe breastfeeding in public should be allowed, and we should have the same kind of laws as they do in Scotland.

[Tamarind]

don't see the slightest problem. Its just feeding a baby.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tamarind
don't see the slightest problem. Its just feeding a baby.

The problem is that some believe it is unlawful to do it in public. It is argued that it is not, even by a government minister, but that is yet to be decided by statute law or case law, until then, my extreme scenario could be a danger to any nursing mother.

I believe it should be lawful in England, and that women should have the same protection that they have in Scotland.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Gazbo
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

Hey, Gazbo, do you like to eat your meals in a bathroom?

[KawaiiSakura1]

i hate Breastfeeding. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now

[bananarama]

Originally posted by Gazbo
Its a tricky one. I think I'm against it for the same reason I'm against topless sunbathing in public places because it can bring up questions in younger children that the parents won't be able to answer. But I see not much wrong with doing it in a bathroom.

What!!!!!!! Topless bathing. Questions from younger children.....Parents cannot answer!!!!! Are you serious...........

Topless is just topless it's not genitals for goodness sake.......

[andyman]

Yes women should breastfeed in public... I just want to perv

[bananarama]

Originally posted by andyman
Yes women should breastfeed in public... I just want to perv

But the government don't want you to.......They like all the perving kept for themselves.......

[andyman]

That is so true, i dont want to buy mums & jugs monthly

[Sticks]

Originally posted by KawaiiSakura1
i hate Breastfeeding. no way will be Breastfeeding my baby when i have one. I'm to young to have one now

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Hey, Gazbo, do you like to eat your meals in a bathroom?

I am afraid that the counter argument to this is, "Well me eating in public is not illegal"

This is the problem I have been stating, the law.

There are contrary legal opinions floating around as to whether it is illegal to breastfeed in public.

The press said that it in theory a mother could be charged with indecency or a public order offence, so someone has given them that legal opinion, that it may be unlawful.

The blogger I referenced earlier and the government minister in her letter gave a legal opinion to say the opposite.

The law will only be clearer in England and Wales, when we have proper statute law, along the lines of the law in Scotland, or when we have case law.

For case law to do it, a mother will have to be arrested for simply breastfeeding in public, and the CPS bringing a prosecution. It is suggested on the blog, the CPS will not be doing so, so a woman being made to accept a police caution would do it, but in that case it would confirm that breastfeeding in public would be illegal. If that would occur, given government policy, there would have to be emergency legislation. However this may come too late for the woman who may have been forced to sign the sex offenders register loosing her baby to social services in the process.

BTW is there anyone here with a working knowledge of the SS? Would they take a baby away because the mother had been made to sign the sex offenders register?

How likely is that scenario?

Not as far fetched as one would like

[KawaiiSakura1]

Originally posted by Sticks

But according to the experts, it gives many benefits for both mother and child, and also is free.

i don't give a s***t what the experts say i'm not doing it