[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Sad..very very sad...dont bother moaning at me for evidence ever again.

I don't believe I ever have to be honest. Graphic videos/links to graphic videos have always been deleted

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

OK...if you can find a proper study that says stunning actually anesthetizes animals so they don't feel pain, and causes less pain than cutting the throat, please let me know and I will change my stance on this. Though I still put more stock in living conditions than way of death tbh.

I don't do religion, at all. And have criticized elements of the Muslim faith a few times. I have issues with near every religion tbh, in some way. I just really don't see why people get so up in arms about Halal slaughter. I notice even on this thread its been all about Halal, not much mention of Kosher slaughter...which is actually exactly the same. And you know the reason for cutting the throat in Kosher slaughter? Because its the method that makes the animal feel the least pain.

Basically the negative focus on anything Muslim is far more prominent than people blindly defending Muslims..of which I haven't actually seen. I have seen reasoned arguments against certain criticisms. I don;t think theres even a single member that agrees with every aspect of the Muslim faith. I think theres a few members who disagree with Muslims in general and will find any reason to be negative and blame them for all the worlds ills though sadly. To prove my point, I am tempted to make a thread about how Muslim men (as a class, not on an individual level. Not all Muslim men are like that disclaimer) treat women...and see how many people leap in to defend the Muslim men. Can't imagine there would be many.

Kosher slaughter has been mentioned a couple of times as well on this thread. And there have been some snide remarks as well but sadly we seem to have to put up with that every time Islam comes up in any context. Not from you.

I don't particularly care what group it is personally I just want the least possible suffering for the Animal. I do eat meat but it's mostly organic chicken these days as the animal welfare and slaughter bothers me a great deal. I love bacon but I don't think my craving it is worth the life of some poor pig really. So I don't eat it often.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I love bacon but I don't think my craving it is worth the life of some poor pig really. So I don't eat it often.

Even not often is sometimes. So when you eat bacon sometimes do you just give in to your craving?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Even not often is sometimes. So when you eat bacon sometimes do you just give in to your craving?

No there are times when eating out that it will be part of a meal and I've eaten it occasionally. Sometimes the flesh is weak. I'm not a vegetarian but as I get older I eat meat less and less. Is there some special reason to know more about my dietry habits? Or just curious?

Even the cats or the local foxes test your conscience because if they get hold of a bird or mouse the animal literally screams. Even the frog that lives in my garden and has escaped cat clutches many times screams when they get a hold of it. Not nice.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

it is laughable because i guarantee if someone slit a cats throat and hung it up by its back legs to die, there would be calls for the persons genitals to be removed and I literally can't wait for you to disagree with this or at worse call me ignorant, yet another personal attack but I am used to it from you now.

You're now imagining that I might call you ignorant and then saying it's a personal attack and that you're "used to it"? Whatever floats your boat I suppose?

Anyway, to answer your question... err... yes people would be pretty upset if someone cut a cat's throat and strung it up by its legs. I'm not sure I want to visit your town if it's A-OK to electrocute them and then fire things into their skull, though .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Why are you comparing what is normally a domestic animal to animals that we kill for meat?

If someone strung up a cat and left them to die for no reason then yes, that would be disturbing but you have been offered proof on why stunning is not a kinder method of execution for animals that are killed for meat.

You must know the complete lunacy of your argument, surely? You can't compare what would be the murder of a pet to the culling of an animal for food.

Naturally you can't see the point, so I will spell it out for you, all through the thread we have been told slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death doesn't affect the animal and is kinder than stunning so maybe we can use this method to cull badgers and foxes and stray cats, if it's a kinder end for the animal where's the harm

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Naturally you can't see the point, so I will spell it out for you, all through the thread we have been told slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death doesn't affect the animal and is kinder than stunning so maybe we can use this method to cull badgers and foxes and stray cats, if it's a kinder end for the animal where's the harm

I don't think anyone said it didn't affect the animal. I mean, the effect is death.

As for badgers and foxes, the way we often cull them is probably one of the most excruciatingly painful deaths. Stray cats, I don't think we cull them over here do we? In Europe, they put poison down which we do for rats over here. That's often a long lingering and painful method of culling.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Naturally you can't see the point, so I will spell it out for you, all through the thread we have been told slitting an animals throat and letting it bleed to death doesn't affect the animal and is kinder than stunning so maybe we can use this method to cull badgers and foxes and stray cats, if it's a kinder end for the animal where's the harm

You are comparing apples and oranges, Whether an animal is stunned or not, slitting their throat is the preferred method used in slaughterhouses because it doesn't affect the meat while the poisons and chemicals used to cull pests or euthanise pets will often affect the meat. Killing animals for food an killing pest animals are two completely different ball parks and I really should not have to state the obvious as to why that's the case.

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

[Vicky.]

I would be happy with culling badgers and foxes by throat slitting tbh (I don't actually understand the need for culling at all, but accept that it legally goes on), rather than the methods we currently use. They die either way, so rather they are killed by the least painful method thats available.

I didn't realise it was legal to just kill stray cats..nor am I aware that culling cats is needed in this country...so can't comment on that or the methods currently used. But if they are barbaric (arguably the culling itself is barbaric. But again I don't fully understand the reasons for culling animals anyway) and painful, then yes, cutting their throats would be preferable.

Any animal that is deemed to have to be killed, I would go for the least painful method possible.

At this stage you may maybe bring up putting pets down in vets and how we should maybe be throat slitting for that (given you seem to equate killing an animal for food/good reason, with killing an animal for fun, and appear to maybe think if a psycho wanted to kill a cat, they should do it by stungun and bolt?). Except, that the current methods are mostly painfree anyway as far as I am aware. So no need to change them to add blood to the mix


This thead has actually made me think of things I would never have thought of before. I am now wondering if, rather than electric chair or lethal injection...it may be better to slit the throats of those who have been given the death penalty. Though, I imagine the families of the victims may want as much pain as possible to be felt, rather than just the death. Seeing the blood may help them feel they got vengeance or something though. Officials would probably never go for it. Too messy...and too quick. Tibb really makes me think of odd things at times

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

TBH I hadn't bothered to look for 'proof' since it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant and I've found this thread somewhat bizarre personally. Since you brought it up though I did a quick Google.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

It wasn't that hard to find just a Google of 'is cutting an animals throat a painless death'.

RSPCA says a stunned animal is rendered unconscious. Which is what I'd assumed. There are several PDFs at the bottom of this article which explains why the RSPCA are opposed to halal and kosher slaughter.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

[parmnion]

Im sure a video showing each method if death would clear up all this confusion..unfortunatly we dont get treated as mature adults and are stopped from posting video evidence.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Im sure a video showing each method if death would clear up all this confusion..unfortunatly we dont get treated as mature adults and are stopped from posting video evidence.

I personally wouldn't want to look at that.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I personally wouldn't want to look at that.

You dont have to..the videos links could state what was shown in them leaving it up to the individual to choose for thenselves rather than have some nanny state minded moderator decide for us.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You are comparing apples and oranges, Whether an animal is stunned or not, slitting their throat is the preferred method used in slaughterhouses because it doesn't affect the meat while the poisons and chemicals used to cull pests or euthanise pets will often affect the meat. Killing animals for food an killing pest animals are two completely different ball parks and I really should not have to state the obvious as to why that's the case.

Also nobody has said that having their throat slit does not affect the animals, a lot of people have stated that it's an awful experience either way but the non-stunning methods are quicker and cause less suffering to the animal, people have posted legitimate studies that back up these claims. Perhaps you should read posts more carefully since you seemed to have gotten the wrong end of the stick completely in regards to people's arguments.

Perhaps you should take your own advice given what Vicky has just posted.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This may be me. I have repeatedly said that cutting throats is actually a painless death, as it appears studies back up (and if there were any studies proving otherwise, I am sure they would have been found by someone by now. Maybe not cherie, but someone. I had a brief search but can't find any, but they still may exist) So if this is what Cherie means by doesn't affect the animal...then yeah I did say it. And stand by it given my experience of bad cuts with very sharp objects and how little I felt, along with the research actually specifically done on the matter.

But as DR pointed out, it obviously affects the animal in the sense that the animal dies.

Edit. Though I should maybe say, that throat cutting as a way to die...would only be painless if the cutting was done by someone skilled enough to do it right. Not an amateur throat cutting, which may not even kill the cuttee.

Thanks Vicky, I was trying to draw the comparison as to whey we accept animals throats being slit in certain situations but not in others, not everyone gets what I am trying to say or pretends not to, I always find you very honest in your thoughts and appreciate that you do not move the goalposts every five minutes, you truly are very fair and balanced and always happy to try and see the other side, I must try and be more like you

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Thanks Vicky, I was trying to draw the comparison as to why we accept animals throats being slit in certain situations but not in others, not everyone gets what I am trying to say or pretends not to

I don't think people don't get it or pretend not to, it's just a moot question when it comes to slaughter methods? Because all you're really asking is "Why do we accept animals being killed and eaten in certain situations but not in others", which is a totally different debate about vegitarianism... it has nothing to do with the throat-slitting. Unless you're happy to see people wandering around killing and eating the neighborhood cats so long as they stun them first .

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't think people don't get it or pretend not to, it's just a moot question when it comes to slaughter methods? Because all you're really asking is "Why do we accept animals being killed and eaten in certain situations but not in others", which is a totally different debate about vegitarianism... it has nothing to do with the throat-slitting. Unless you're happy to see people wandering around killing and eating the neighborhood cats so long as they stun them first :think:.

For the 100th time there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry, I can't put in in simpler terms.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

For the 100th time there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry, I can't put in in simpler terms.

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

I have no idea what you are talking about none of the above applies to my point.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I have no idea what you are talking about none of the above applies to my point.

Of course it does and I don't even know how to make it more simple...

You said that; "there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry"

SO

If people believe that throat slitting is OK in the meat indistry, it's fine outside of the meat industry. That is your logic here.

Therefore

If people believe that stunning/bolting is OK in the meat industry, it must be fine outside of the meat industry?

Which leads me to the conclusion that you must think that stunning and killing cats is OK so long as it's painless.


If you DON'T... then I have no idea why you think that anyone who is OK with throat slitting in the meat industry is also OK with cat murder.

Frankly though, i think you're just scrabbling to make a point that you haven't really thought through.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

TBH I hadn't bothered to look for 'proof' since it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant and I've found this thread somewhat bizarre personally. Since you brought it up though I did a quick Google.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ous-slaughter/

It wasn't that hard to find just a Google of 'is cutting an animals throat a painless death'.

RSPCA says a stunned animal is rendered unconscious. Which is what I'd assumed. There are several PDFs at the bottom of this article which explains why the RSPCA are opposed to halal and kosher slaughter.

https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwe...ghter/factfile

of course it's going to be unpleasant, there is no "pleasant" way to kill an animal for food. Do you think hanging a chicken upside down by their legs and dunking their heads in an electrified water-bath before cutting their heads off is nicer?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You dont have to..the videos links could state what was shown in them leaving it up to the individual to choose for thenselves rather than have some nanny state minded moderator decide for us.

This forum is 13+, we have a swear filter so how on earth you think graphic videos like that would be allowed is beyond me :/

[Toy Soldier]

On the topic of videos though, the WORST animal slaughter video I've ever seen was of pigs being gassed with CO2.

That's one of the most commonly used "nice" Western slaughter methods used for pigs. They screech in terror and climb over each other, at first, slowly dwindling to a guttural rasping sound as they gasp their last few breaths. Horrendous.

[Cherie]

[QUOTE=Toy Soldier;9677617]Of course it does and I don't even know how to make it more simple...

You said that; "there is a train of thought on this thread that throat slitting causes no pain... so if people believe that they should have no issue with animals being killed in this way outside the meat industry"

SO

If people believe that throat slitting is OK in the meat indistry, it's fine outside of the meat industry. That is your logic here.

Therefore

If people believe that stunning/bolting is OK in the meat industry, it must be fine outside of the meat industry?

Which leads me to the conclusion that you must think that stunning and killing cats is OK so long as it's painless.


If you DON'T... then I have no idea why you think that anyone who is OK with throat slitting in the meat industry is also OK with cat murder.

Frankly though, i think you're just scrabbling to make a point that you haven't really thought through.[/QUOTE]


No I think you will find that is you and you have not comprehended what I am saying, I have not gone to great lengths such as providing links and proof that throat slitting is painless, I have not said stunning is a great idea, what I have said is I think slitting throats might not be such a stress free experience as is being promoted, so in view of that promotion would the same people promoting the idea of throat slitting as a kinder way to die, be okay with other animals having their throats slit outside the meat industry if there were going to die...whether this be culling or some psycho killing animals is just an example and not one to be taken to heart like you have done.