[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

A good day to bury bad news... or the right to religious observance.

Religious observance is fine but in business it should not be forced down others throats.

I know a Jewish Family who I call friends,they have a business,their sabbath day is a Saturday, they still trade on a Saturday however.

It's called tolerance and serving the publics needs and wants, which is right.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Because they are the only sub group referred to in scripture, that's why Christians feel justified discriminating against them.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What if it was just their wedding cake, a normal wedding cake like any straight couples except it was for a gay couple?

If that was the case then i'm sure this issue would'nt have arisen in the first place.The cake maker would have made a generic wedding cake,The gays would've bought it and happy days.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

It's their interpretation of the bible, that is the only group where they can legitimately say they go against their religious observance to provide a service for with regard to marriage.
If that is changed then they'll have to accept that, until then religious observances are protected under the same umbrella as gay rights as far as I see it.

[Tom4784]

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It doesn't matter whether or not Christians feel justified in discriminating against them though. It's either saying that it's ok to discriminate against a certain group as long as you're part of a religion and if that's the case what's to stop other religions doing the same against anyone they want? or else it's saying that discrimination is totally wrong for every group except gay people, they're fair game

So it's ok to discriminate against somebody's religion?Forcing them to make something in their own shop which is against their religion is discriminating against their religious beliefs.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's their interpretation of the bible, that is the only group where they can legitimately say they go against their religious observance to provide a service for with regard to marriage.
If that is changed then they'll have to accept that, until then religious observances are protected under the same umbrella as gay rights as far as I see it.

I thought this thread was about changing the Law to allow religious owned businesses to discriminate

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

So it's ok to discriminate against somebody's religion?Forcing them to make something in their own shop which is against their religion is discriminating against their religious beliefs.

If a gay cake shop owner refused to make a cake for a christian couples wedding then maybe you'd have a point

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

Very well said,I agree with near all that.
Perhaps I wouldn't go as far as to the description of Nigel Farage and UKIP,I share your hope they never come to power at all.

For me, that Baker should not be allowed to remain as a business to the public.

[Livia]

Actually, it says in the Bible that Jews may have slaves so long as they aren't other Jews. So you're all my slaves now, okay? Especially you, Dezzy....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

Actually, it says in the Bible that Jews may have slaves so long as they aren't other Jews. So you're all my slaves now, okay? Especially you, Dezzy....

I thought we were already anyway

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I thought we were already anyway

I like your attitude Niamh. I might promote you to uber-slave.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you offer a service that you're making money then you're a business and you should be held to discrimination laws. You should only be able to refuse service for valid reasons and having homophobic views and trying to justify them with religious beliefs that you've CHOSEN to believe in is not valid.

I hope this baker gets dragged through the mud, I hope Nigel and his party of racist homophobic throwbacks to the Nazis never come into power and I hope that any religious establishment that makes money from being a wedding venue is forced to endure the fact that they can't turn away gay customers.

Does this include Mosques? Would a Gay Muslim couple (and there ARE plenty) be warmly welcomed by say, the Birmingham Central Mosque in Highgate? And if not, you then advocate forcing the Mosque to marry them.

All good then.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Does this include Mosques? Would a Gay Muslim couple (and there ARE plenty) be warmly welcomed by say, the Birmingham Central Mosque in Highgate? And if not, you then advocate forcing the Mosque to marry them.

All good then.

I think 'any religious establishments' kind of covers well....anything, does it not?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

If a gay cake shop owner refused to make a cake for a christian couples wedding then maybe you'd have a point

That did'nt happen and i still have a point
Although i'm beginning to forget what that point was

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

I like your attitude Niamh. I might promote you to uber-slave.

[Livia]

I couldn't marry in a synagogue because I was not marrying a Jew. Thems the rules... But I didn't feel like I was being victimised because I understood the rules. I never took the synagogue to court... I got married somewhere else. Actually we found an understanding CofE vicar who was happy to marry us. We could have made a massive song and dance about it but like I said, I understood the rules meant a synagogue couldn't marry us for religious reasons. It's not only gay people who are excluded from marrying in particular religious venues.

[Northern Monkey]

Ah that's it.Discriminating against somebody's religious freedom is still discrimination.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

I couldn't marry in a synagogue because I was not marrying a Jew. Thems the rules... But I didn't feel like I was being victimised because I understood the rules. I never took the synagogue to court... I got married somewhere else. Actually we found an understanding CofE vicar who was happy to marry us. We could have made a massive song and dance about it but like I said, I understood the rules meant a synagogue couldn't marry us for religious reasons. It's not only gay people who are excluded from marrying in particular religious venues.

Well that's not right either if they are making money from the services.

I think religious establishments should only be able to use their beliefs to discriminate if they aren't actually making any money from doing so. If they are then they should have to uphold the discrimination laws like any other business should.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

That did'nt happen and i still have a point
Although i'm beginning to forget what that point was

haha, well, I just don't think we're going to agree on this but it was a good old debate of a Thursday morning

Originally Posted by Livia

I couldn't marry in a synagogue because I was not marrying a Jew. Thems the rules... But I didn't feel like I was being victimised because I understood the rules. I never took the synagogue to court... I got married somewhere else. Actually we found an understanding CofE vicar who was happy to marry us. We could have made a massive song and dance about it but like I said, I understood the rules meant a synagogue couldn't marry us for religious reasons. It's not only gay people who are excluded from marrying in particular religious venues.

For me the whole whether or not a church, mosque etc should be forced to do the actual ceremonies is a different matter altogether, it's not really a public business as Joey pointed out earlier

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by EyeballPaul

That did'nt happen and i still have a point
Although i'm beginning to forget what that point was

Trying to veer the thread back to the point .....

Once a law is in force, that's it, there is no room for discussion. People either comply or they don't and they take the consequences if they don't. No exceptions.

At the moment, a business has the right to refuse to do business with who ever it decides is not right for them. However, that decision must also be made within the context of the law. refusing to do business with some PURELY on the grounds of a discriminatory stance that has been made illegal is against the law.

All that said, its simple enough for anyone to get round said laws. Sorry, can't do business with you as our order book is already full etc etc etc.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Trying to veer the thread back to the point .....

Once a law is in force, that's it, there is no room for discussion. People either comply or they don't and they take the consequences if they don't. No exceptions.

At the moment, a business has the right to refuse to do business with who ever it decides is not right for them. However, that decision must also be made within the context of the law. refusing to do business with some PURELY on the grounds of a discriminatory stance that has been made illegal is against the law.

All that said, its simple enough for anyone to get round said laws. Sorry, can't do business with you as our order book is already full etc etc etc.

No room at the Inn :'(

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I thought this thread was about changing the Law to allow religious owned businesses to discriminate

Hang on... ah.... oh well it relates to the other thread and if the precedent is set on May 7th with the case of the Irish bakers he won't have to promise anything as they'll all just cite that if they want to discriminate won't they?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Hang on... ah.... oh well it relates to the other thread and if the precedent is set on May 7th with the case of the Irish bakers he won't have to promise anything as they'll all just cite that if they want to discriminate won't they?

Yeah more than likely

[LeatherTrumpet]

what if the Christian baker started wolf whistling at well stacked girls as they walked past his shop?

What would "the gays" have to say about that?