[MeMyselfAndI]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Like Jackson did with Jade Goody ? but ALL accepted ,but Jade got hounded for her"racism"

Jade was clearly racist, what is wrong with you??????

[Beso]

I think it,s just the way things are for his generation. Can we all sit here and say my dad ain't ever said anything like that before..do we love our dads? Of course we do. Unconditionally.

What we have to remember is big Ron is the man that introduced Gareth crooks and Laurie Cunningham to big time football, so I,d say his comments were more ignorant than racist..

[Rob!]

One racist comment doesn't make you a complete bigot in my opinion....But I don't really know the full story tbh.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by MeMyselfAndI

Jade was clearly racist, what is wrong with you??????

Please add IMO as it is not my opinion,was Jackson racist in your opinion ?

[joeysteele]

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

I think he has a massive chance of winning,.hes a lovely man

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

..that's a good post Joey..I do agree with a lot of it although I don't think what he said could be described as a silly comment at all, it was an absolute racist comment and not in another 'era' either..but I also believe that he has done many positive things for different races in football and that can't be ignored either, one racist comment doesn't define him because of everything positive he is or has been in his career....he hasn't to my knowledge either said anything similar to that again...I'm not a huge fan myself, but because he doesn't really stand for much I admire in a person..but I don't think he's a racist either...

[Drew.]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I like Ron Atkinson, he is an absolute legend to one of my older Brothers as a football manager.
As to the racist issue. I am against prejudice of any kind and I have pulled even some casual friends up on what I felt may be deemed just bordering on racist comments.

However, unless they were clearly racist and I have come across people who are,I am not going to hold one or even a few comments against them all through life and not be able to see the other good sides to them too.
If they persisted in inappropriate comments then I would then cut them off because I wouldn't want to be associated with them because of that.

I don't however see Ron as a racist,he made a silly comment and has been got at ever since,however his actions do not follow a racist path in my view.
People who are really racist,in the main, cannot hide it and they certainly afford no merits or hand recognition to black people,or indeed other races either.
Over his long and varied football career,Ron has not only selected black players for his teams,he has nurtured them too, suppporting them and opening the door to successful careers for them.
That is not the actions of a racist, when they have authority and power over others lives and livelihoods.

Some people however, don't climb down easily, there are times it has almost been like pulling someones teeth out, just to get them to admit they made a mistake or that they were sorry.
I think that could be a problem with Ron, he doesn't back down easily,that may well be a flaw to his character but does not in any way substantiate any racist allegations against him.

I don't see him winning CBB, he may be the first out even but I like him and hope he is in for a fair while.
I don't really consider it fair to brand him a racist though when in fact there have never been any official allegations of racist activity from or by him and although throwaway comments can be offensive,they in themself do not constitute someone is racist either.

To my knowledge,he has not said anything further from that incident that could be considered racist as a comment, so I see nothing from his 'actions' that even indicate he may even be,let alone is.

great post, completely agree

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

It's all about context. The N- word has become a very taboo word these days but it was not always the case years ago.

For example in the 'Dambusters' film there is a black dog called "N-". ! Sounds insane by today's standards but loads of people back then used to call their black dogs "N-", just as they would call a spotted dog "spotty". If it was a genuinely offensive word back then, then no one would use it to name their pet! Think about it. It would be like calling your cat 'wan*er*' now! It just wouldn't happen!

Back then, "N-" was simply a play on the word negro (meaning black), just as the word "spotty" was a play on the word "spotted"

N- didn't begin as a racist word but it became one over time.

Just like the word Gay used to only mean happy but then evolved to mean homosexual.
Listening to old songs, people sing of feeling 'happy and gay' and it sounds hilariously inappropriate by the standard of today's new meaning of the word gay. So if someone recorded a song called " I feel gay " in 1941, it would simply mean " I feel happy ". If they recorded it now in 2013 it would mean to everyone " I feel homosexual "

The N-word years ago didn't have a racist intent behind it, it was just a slang term for negro, just like brit is for british or aussie is for australian. Over time, the N- word came to be used in a negative way by negative people and so now it has become " a racist word " and so it is a word to be avoided.

Aussie and Brit have not become "racist words" but who knows in 30 years time they might be too !

Ron - being of the older generation - is used to the old way of saying N-, which was simply the equivalent of saying Brit for british.

Ron's mistake - i think - is in slipping up and not realising how racist and taboo the N- has become in this day and age. I don't think his use of the N- word came from hatred, but simply came from not keeping up with the times and how words evolve. Of course in a commentary job he should be more mindful of that.

But we should also be more mindful of Ron's generation and understand how different words had different meanings then to now. We should therefore expect the odd slip up from that generation and as long as there is no malicious intent in using it, best just to let it go. It's all about the evolution of words.

Same for swearing - did you know the C- word simply used to mean cut? This is where the name of the county Kent comes from. Literally a "cut in the land" which created the river thames. Kent, Cut and ******* - all from the same root years ago - but look at the difference now.

Maybe we should ban the word Kent. Maybe we should all never talk at all, just to play it safe.

[DanaC]

Don't think that's where Kent comes from. Has a different root I think, meaning 'coastal' iirc.

[CaudleHalbard]

As said earlier in this thread, to describe someone as "black" was considered a generation or two ago to be almost as bad as using the dreaded N word.

This may be because of the word that usually followed it, most commonly "bastard" or similar.

So the context in which a word is commonly used has a huge effect on its acceptability.

[Lewarse]

The guy is 74 ffs - Go speak to your grandparents about racial issues (assuming you are white) - see what they have to say about the matter. Judging people of that generation on what is deemed PC today is a difficult thing to do.

[CaudleHalbard]

Indeed. A 93 year old lady I know wouldnt dream of calling someone "black". She would think it extremely rude.

She is however quite happy to refer to "coloureds" and "darkies"!

In no way is she racist.

[DanaC]

I know what you're saying, but I think even if one were to poll a group of people exclusively over the age of 70 most of them wold know that the N word is no longer acceptable.

My Dad was 73 when he died in 2009. He was never what anybody could call PC. But he knew that the N word was unacceptable.

There seems to be an assumption that people set their vocabulary in stone somewhere around the age of 30 and take absolutely no account of the changing world they're in from that point on.

For someone to use the N word at any time in the last 20 years and not realise it was offensive would require them to have boarded up their eyes and ears.

[thesheriff443]

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

[erinp5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlLetRj12PQ

Youtube video

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

we have all said stupid things, if you say no, you are a liar!
a stupid comment does not make you the devil!

Of course we've all said stupid things. And no it doesn't make him the devil.

[Lord Of The Garden]

*

Same with words regarding disabilities.

As Alan Partridge pointed out now we have 'Scope' but not long ago it used to be called 'The Spastic Society'. Yet it can be regarded offensive now to use the word 'Spastic'.

I know someone who was sacked from a hotel when trying to explain to another staff member who to give a suitcase to. Their conversation went :

"Can you give this to the guy in the corner please?"
"Which guy?"
"The black guy"

He was sacked for describing someone as black.

Is black an offensive term? I thought with Black history month / MOBO awards etc it was an accepted term. Maybe some people take offence to it. If so, then what do we say?

Perhaps we need a governing body of acceptable language experts featuring someone from every single country/faith/gender/disability etc and they could put a leaflet through everyone's door once a week updating us on what is acceptable and unacceptable language?

If not then we are all at risk of one day being accidentally racist/sexist etc even though we used the exact language that was acceptable only last week.

Or we could all just learn to become less bothered by words, recognise we are all equal and temporary life forms that are born from the same star and laugh at everything as we roll along the river of life

Plus after millions of years of evolution, in the year 2013, it's safe to say that by now, everyone on the planet is mixed race so who gives a s*** !

[chuff me dizzy]

This country is now going overboard with shouting racism ,.and it will never accept racism works both ways

[williamwaggadagger]

Big ron is the least racist man ever.
He has done nothing in his 74 years that is racist action, he has supported black players for 30 years, he was THE FIRST british manager to actively recruit black players. None of these greta players like cyrille regis ever felt they had been mistreated or racially abused , insulted, nothing. ron was always a fair man and a fair manager.

This is 1 word he muttered under his breath once when he didn't even know he was on air.I've never used that word in my life, but who hasn't muttered some nonsense under his breath once in their lives...Black players like regis and carlton palmer have defended ron totally against any of these accusations.

He lost his career and never worked on football again 9 years ago, quitting tv work and all newspaper work, after being a fantastic pundit, commentator and player

I think whats happened to big ron is an absolute disgrace in a nation of phenomenal double standards

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by williamwaggadagger

Big ron is the least racist man ever.
He has done nothing in his 74 years that is racist action, he has supported black players for 30 years, he was THE FIRST british manager to actively recruit black players. None of these greta players like cyrille regis ever felt they had been mistreated or racially abused , insulted, nothing. ron was always a fair man and a fair manager.

This is 1 word he muttered under his breath once when he didn't even know he was on air.I've never used that word in my life, but who hasn't muttered some nonsense under his breath once in their lives...Black players like regis and carlton palmer have defended ron totally against any of these accusations.

He lost his career and never worked on football again 9 years ago, quitting tv work and all newspaper work, after being a fantastic pundit, commentator and player

I think whats happened to big ron is an absolute disgrace in a nation of phenomenal double standards

Well said!!I agree!

[DanaC]

For him to use it unthinkingly, means it is in his lexicon. And yes, words change their meaning over time, and yes that word carried a different weight when he was growing up, but he didn't just transport himself across the decades, he lived the intervening years.

He was clearly a very forward thinking man in many ways when he was championing and actively recruiting black players at a time when they were excluded by the rest of the football teams/ That doesn't mean he is incapable of racism - though it offers some balance to the picture.

I do think he had to pay a high price. I don't think he deserves to be defined by that moment.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by DanaC

For him to use it unthinkingly, means it is in his lexicon. And yes, words change their meaning over time, and yes that word carried a different weight when he was growing up, but he didn't just transport himself across the decades, he lived the intervening years.

He was clearly a very forward thinking man in many ways when he was championing and actively recruiting black players at a time when they were excluded by the rest of the football teams/ That doesn't mean he is incapable of racism - though it offers some balance to the picture.

I do think he had to pay a high price. I don't think he deserves to be defined by that moment.

Oh for Gods sake, get over it

[Verbal]

As I was saying....










Just kidding

[Lex]

I said my piece early on in this thread, and said that I would say no more, but have been keeping a lazy eye on the conversations to see which way the land lies with what is,.. and what is not considered racism nowadays!
I personally do not believe that anyone here has the right to brand anyone else that denies being racist...as a racist!..simply because ..you do not know what is in their heart!...I don't know!...no one knows, but the actual person themselves!...I'm not saying that the comment that Ron said about Marcel Desailly was particularly nice!...on the contrary...it was nothing short of stupid ! Apart from the "well known to be lazy in the football community" this could quite possibly be true!...But along with this, Ron's stupidity rang out like a church bell when he added the word ******!!...Which was the icing on the cake that he used to try and emphasise his frustration at Marcel's apparent 'lack of effort'!, ..Which of course was stupidity personified and quite frankly out of character!...And no one is denying that the use of the dreaded word was quite probably hurtful to the player and his family!...and I concede that the whole of the black community were in the right to display moral indignation!..and demand an apology and even his dismissal from his commentary post.
But it is patently wrong for people to try and take the moral high-ground on here [or anywhere really] when they condemn a man that they really know nothing about, and brand them 'A Racist' for a stupid comment that could only be reasonably described as 'an inexplicable aberration'..as is evidenced by Ron's previous history of pushing forward 'talent above race/colour' , thus breaking with the universally accepted practice of applying a kind of unofficial segregation in first class football in this country!

....Yes!...Ron was stupid!...once in his very long career!...and has paid a pretty high price for it!!...but I have to say that as far as i'm concerned that judging by his long history of racial tolerance ...Ron Atkinson is not racist!...just human....Judge him on being a worthy house mate and not a past mistake!


......Oh!...and by the way ..am I considered 'Racist' because ..I call black people black???????? ...why should it be offensive to black people?...If a black person called me a white man....I can't for the life of me think why I should feel offended????

...I would appreciate it, if any of our black members would either post or pm me to let me know... thanks.

Cheers.