[bitontheslide]

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals. They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for. Everything else was and is noise. Obfuscation is being applied from both sides of the argument. That's our MP's fault, no-one elses. They are trying to make something that is actually very simple seem very complicated. It's not complicated and it never has been. Parliament could easily have voted to approve brexit and we would be several months into the transition by now. But they blocked it because they don't want it.

I don't see any resolution coming other than a hard brexit or a cancel it. That should be the basis of any referendum. I didn't want another ref, but i think it's inevitable now.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals. They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for. Everything else was and is noise. Obfuscation is being applied from both sides of the argument. That's our MP's fault, no-one elses. They are trying to make something that is actually very simple seem very complicated. It's not complicated and it never has been. Parliament could easily have voted to approve brexit and we would be several months into the transition by now. But they blocked it because they don't want it.

I don't see any resolution coming other than a hard brexit or a cancel it. That should be the basis of any referendum. I didn't want another ref, but i think it's inevitable now.

I agree with all of that, Bots.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals.

Agree completely with this. Nothing wrong with those goals at all.

They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for.

Disagree with this. Of course I don't know everyone in the country of even my area..but in my experience no way was the majority leave vote sensible like the way you put it. It really was 'immigrants **** off back to where you are from, close the borders fullstop', 'we spend so much on the EU when it could be going to the NHS and such' (as IF anything potentially saved would go towards something worthwhile. More likely another bribe to the DUP next time theres an election...), 'the news said we could leave and not pay the fees and control immigration whilst also retaining our current trade deals and maybe even making them better'..along with a couple of people thinking it through and basically coming to the conclusion you made above, and voting accordingly and being able to actually articulate their views rather than 'rargh, immigrants'.

Could just be my area, could just be the people I know (and listen to when out, am one of those annoying eavesdroppers ) but yeah. Not my experience at all. Its so depressing setting it out like that..

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think thats fair tbh. Some voted for reasons other than falling for the lies or being xenophobic.

Though I have to say, in my 'friendship/family' group..it was mainly either falling for the lies or it being about immigration. Along with a fair few who voted to leave while believing pie in the sky 'no immigration or fees, but keep trade deals' stuff whcih was clearly ridiculous.

I mean, I don't pretend I even knew what I was voting for, should have looked up more at the time but was kind of put off the whole thing by all the obvious bull**** that people were falling for, along with the fact that the vote itself seemed to make some people think that it was now fine to be openly racist (again, not calling all leavers racist, but its undeniable that many took it as license to be..loud with ignorant views) It all just made me turn off. Also, again I feel the need to point out that obviously not everyone who had immigration as part of the reason for their vote was being xenophobic or whatever, some were genuine. But a fair few..were basically just like 'get the ****ers out!!!!' (which again was not going to bloody happen either..)

So I voted on better the devil you know really. Rather than being totally informed. I didn't even know on the morning I voted which way I was going to go! But decided that the leave side was just telling more lies, and I would rather no change at all than..possibly totally ****ing the country. Of course it could have really benefitted us, still a slim possibility that it might. But in hindsight, I am fairly sure I made the right call.

Just get so frustrated with it all. And how some people on my life have changed for the worse. Or not changed really, just..showed a hidden side of themselves. And how it seems to be denied that this happens.

That's completely fair. It's far friendlier than I'm capable of being around this issue these days. I do disagree with you, and you sort of disagree with yourself in the 2nd paragraph, but you have the self awareness to acknowledge it

You're part of the electorate, it's not your job to understand everything, it's the job of politicians trying to earn your vote to explain what is important and why. Here we have though a group of people that won't admit to believing the lies (your friends/family seem like an exception), won't admit to believing anything, won't admit to being xenophobic, and yet they still want to be taken seriously and not mocked.

And to be clear, I'm not mocking people who didn't know everything about everything to do with the referendum (otherwise I'd be attacking myself), i'm mocking those people that still pretend there is some lofty goal to be achieved with this whole mess, while trying to intellectualise themselves into a defence about not believing anything.

Your position and vote actually makes the most sense in the lead up to the referendum, but we're way past the point of making excuses for the willfully uninformed.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

That's completely fair. It's far friendlier than I'm capable of being around this issue these days. I do disagree with you, and you sort of disagree with yourself in the 2nd paragraph, but you have the self awareness to acknowledge it

I do agree with most of what you say. I disagree with the way its made out to be pretty much all leave voters are either duped or racist. Not all. Many, but not all.

I know its ****ing annoying when people get all 'not all X are like that!' in response to stuff, as obviously noone means literally every person. But..I feel the need to answer it as if you actually meant every single one, as thats how people who voted leave read it. If that makes sense at all? Getting a bit garbled I think!

Here we have though a group of people that won't admit to believing the lies (your friends/family seem like an exception), won't admit to believing anything, won't admit to being xenophobic, and yet they still want to be taken seriously and not mocked.

I do agree with this on a group level. Its quite bizarre.

(The only ones I know who do admit to believing the lies, are the ones who are very vocal about how they would vote otherwise knowing what they know now)

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Disagree with this. Of course I don't know everyone in the country of even my area..but in my experience no way was the majority leave vote sensible like the way you put it. It really was 'immigrants **** off back to where you are from, close the borders fullstop', 'we spend so much on the EU when it could be going to the NHS and such' (as IF anything potentially saved would go towards something worthwhile.

I think this is probably true; I also think if our government made some sort of deal with the EU to limit immigration, Brexit wouldn't have happened.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Leavers ARE angry, 'Grrr Remainers! Grrr Theresa May! Grrr the EU! Grrr Diane Abbot!' There's no self reflection there, just blaming everyone but themselves for buying the snake oil.

We are a laughing stock and we deserve to be, the people voted for something they didn't understand and were lied to about it and told to disregard experts who said things they didn't like and now brexit isn't likely to ever happen because the leavers want some idealised idea of Brexit that's never going to happen. We aren't going to magically be better off with no deal and we aren't likely to get a better deal than the one that was on the table.

Sorry to pull you up.on something dezzy, and I can't really be bothered to reply back.

But I, as a leaver....well the last people I'm grrr ring at is remainers..if the vote was to stay in the eu I would still want to leave so would probably flounce about pretending my opinion to still leave was relevant.


So I would applaud these people, not grrr grrr at them, as you so eliquently put it.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals. They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for. Everything else was and is noise. Obfuscation is being applied from both sides of the argument. That's our MP's fault, no-one elses. They are trying to make something that is actually very simple seem very complicated. It's not complicated and it never has been. Parliament could easily have voted to approve brexit and we would be several months into the transition by now. But they blocked it because they don't want it.

I don't see any resolution coming other than a hard brexit or a cancel it. That should be the basis of any referendum. I didn't want another ref, but i think it's inevitable now.

I agree, but I believe it's the eu at fault and not theressa may.