[Livia]

The best kind of terrorist: a dead one.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Livia

The best kind of terrorist: a dead one.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Why are you all so shocked, surprised, horrified?

Do you all think that I invest precious time in putting long posts on various related threads on here because I'm some type of obsessive, anti-Muslim cretin who has 'nothing better to do'?

This will never stop.
Every country in the world is their target.
Innocent civilians, women and children are their targets.
No life is sacred to them.

We cannot reason with them.
We cannot appease them.
We cannot pacify them.

They do want money and there is no 'ransom' which we can pay because none is being sought by them, except one - the total capitulation by our democratically elected governments, a total submission to Islam by our people, and a total acceptance of a miserable existence of life under Sharia Law -- for those who are not executed first because they are deemed by these extremists as too 'offensive' to Allah and too 'infidel' to live.

This is not a 'Movie' which is 'coming to a cinema near you soon' - it's reality, but it is a reality which is definitely coming to a town or city near you soon nonetheless.

It's here. It's happening. It's real. Better get 'used' to it.

Millions of pounds spent on 'extra security', the killing of a lone Jihadist gumnan, or the capture of a few Islamic Fundamentalist plotters living right among us in our cities and suburbs, is all worthy and welcoming, but is merely alleviation of the symptoms, not addressing the evil cause of this terminal disease.

That cause is Islamic Fundamentalism.

But it is no great secret.

Their 'Hate' preachers have been screaming it from dais and rostrums within virtually every city in the UK for decades. We have ignored or tolerated it.

Their jihadists have been practising it on our city streets increasingly over the past few years - the accosting and intimidation of 'non Muslim' passers by, the slaying of off duty soldiers and innocent civilians. We are shocked by each individual incident -- but separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, and each individual 'shocking' incident becomes yesterday's news as we return our attention to coping with life's other more mundane demands.

Their long ensconced 'fifth columnist' agents have - covertly, almost imperceptibly - been implementing parts of their 'Grand Plan' for decades in the UK - changes to our Western Democratic liberal way of life on all levels -- to policy in schools, local government, National Government, even our traditions and customs. But viewed independently and separated by space and time (like my helium balloon analogy in another thread) these changes seem so trivial that we do not 'join the dots', do not pay heed to the very real underlying meaning of the links, do not 'see the big picture' which such seemingly insignificant changes are but part of.

This isn't fantasy. It's fact.

And the really sad thing is - that we cannot win.

We cannot win while ever we continue to treat the inhuman, barbaric demons behind these atrocities as human, and while ever we continue to shackle ourselves with misguided oh so 'civilised' and noble policies in dealing with these insane murderers.

To quote Capone (Robert De Niro) in the film 'The Untouchables':

"When you got an all-out prizefight, you wait until the fight is over, one guy is left standing. 'N' that's how you know who won."

And to bastardise the words of Malone (Sean Connery) from the same film:

"Ain't that just like a Westerner - Brings a knife to a gunfight".

I think more and more people will start to take this whole situation more seriously as these types of attacks occur closer and closer to home. If God forbid an incident like this one were to happen on British Mainland and it resulted in the death of innocent members of the public (Non Muslims I would assume) then I think people would for the first time realise that we are ALL potential victims and that the whole Radical Muslim thing cannot be ignored by anyone any longer.

I would expect there would be a horrific backlash which as it would more than likely be targetted directly towards innocent Muslims, would result in the Muslim community also finally waking up to the evil in our midst.

Then and only then would the people of this Country all united against this evil finally have a chance to bring out the poison let it be made public in all it's insidious forms.

It would take an event like this to finally, actually wake people up from their stupor to see what is happening to their culture.




.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Oh he's dead? Did they give him a chance to give himself up first like that cinema dude?

#stopterrorism

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ithinkiloveyoutoo

Oh he's dead? Did they give him a chance to give himself up first like that cinema dude?

#stopterrorism

What do you think they had been trying to do for upwards of 16 hours?

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

What do you think they had been trying to do for upwards of 16 hours?

I have no idea I didn't really follow this story.

[MTVN]

3 people now confirmed dead

[arista]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

3 people now confirmed dead

2 hostages
34 year old man was one of them

1 gunman

[armand.kay]

How did the two hostages die does anyone know?

[Cal.]

34 year old man and 38 year old woman dead - both innocent people.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I think more and more people will start to take this whole situation more seriously as these types of attacks occur closer and closer to home. If God forbid an incident like this one were to happen on British Mainland and it resulted in the death of innocent members of the public (Non Muslims I would assume) then I think people would for the first time realise that we are ALL potential victims and that the whole Radical Muslim thing cannot be ignored by anyone any longer.

I would expect there would be a horrific backlash which as it would more than likely be targetted directly towards innocent Muslims, would result in the Muslim community also finally waking up to the evil in our midst.

Then and only then would the people of this Country all united against this evil finally have a chance to bring out the poison let it be made public in all it's insidious forms.

It would take an event like this to finally, actually wake people up from their stupor to see what is happening to their culture.




.

Have people forgotten London 7/7 and Lee Rigby? We are not waiting on terrorist attacks

[Creggle]

No terrorist survived? Shame. Would of liked to see him get exported to America and go in to CIA custody. I hope to god people wake up after this attack and realise that we need to get information about other planned attacks, and none of that weak ass waterboarding nonsense neither.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Creggle

No terrorist survived? Shame. Would of liked to see him get exported to America and go in to CIA custody. I hope to god people wake up after this attack and realise that we need to get information about other planned attacks, and none of that weak ass waterboarding nonsense neither.

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

[Shaun]

matthew

[Amy Jade]

Evil bastard I hope he rots in hell

[arista]

[LeatherTrumpet]

Its such a low budget event

This week 5000 Chinese humans will die in road traffic accidents

We have no concept real human tradgedy

[Livia]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

With respect MTVN, you don't know he was unhinged nor whether he has contact or affiliation with extremist groups. There's a pretty good chance that only the bit about him being unhinged is a fair assumption but contact and affiliation with a larger group is a distinct possibility. While he acted alone, there's more than a good chance that others were involved on the periphery. He was known to the security services, only the equality of the law was keeping him free when really, he should have been banged up long before this happened.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Livia

With respect MTVN, you don't know he was unhinged nor whether he has contact or affiliation with extremist groups. There's a pretty good chance that only the bit about him being unhinged is a fair assumption but contact and affiliation with a larger group is a distinct possibility. While he acted alone, there's more than a good chance that others were involved on the periphery. He was known to the security services, only the equality of the law was keeping him free when really, he should have been banged up long before this happened.

Admittedly to some extent it's speculation. However from what we know about him:

- Self styled sheikh
- Previously a self-proclaimed spiritual healer specialising in black magic and astrology
- Used the above position to commit a string of sexual assaults
- Charged with being an accessory to the murder of his ex wife and then claimed the Iranian secret services had collaborated with the Australian security agency in a conspiracy against him
- Wrote a rambling treatise on Islam and sent it to the King of Jordan, Bashar al-Assad, the Iraqi Prime Minister, the King of Saudi Arabia, Barack Obama, David Cameron and Tony Abbott

On top of that is the fact that no organisation has claimed responsibility when usually they shout it from the rooftops, and the whole incident has not actually gained much traction among the active extremist community.

To quote the BBC profile of him:

he has no known links to jihadist groups, and commentators have suggested he is likely to be working alone.

"Certainly this appears to be the actions of a lone actor, perhaps not very well prepared, perhaps not very well planned," Anne Aly, head of the counter terrorism research programme at Australia's Curtin University, told the BBC.

[Ithinkiloveyoutoo]

It happened so fast. I need to read up on this.

[Creggle]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

Point 1: See Livia's post
Point 2: Anyone will tell you anything if you push them past their limits, and known terrorists deserve to suffer even if it bears no results. Though I don't think suspects should be tortured, only known affiliates/terrorists.

[arista]

[The 34-year-old manager of the Lindt cafe, Tori Johnson, and mother
of three Katrina Dawson, 38, have been named as the two hostages
killed during the Sydney siege on Tuesday morning.
Four others have been injured, including a woman
with serious gunshot wounds to the leg.
The Muslim gunman identified as self-styled Iranian Sheik Man Haron Monis,
50 (inset), was also shot dead after police burst into the Martin Place cafe at 2.11am]

[arista]

No need to kill 2 in the cafe

[lostalex]

Islam as a religion is more evil and worse than the KKK ever was. Of course the Guardian is already trying to say that this has nothing at all to do with Islam or terrorism.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

Yeah shame we couldn't torture an unhinged individual acting alone for information about groups that he has no actual contact or affiliation with. The idea that all extremists are part of a highly organised and coherent command structure is a convenient idea but an inaccurate one. Kinda similar to the idea that the more brutal the torture the better information you get; convenient but false.

..a good post Matt..tbh I'm quite conflicted about the torture thing which is why I haven't joined in with the 'CIA discussion' yet..and I actually didn't think that I would be conflicted because I'm abhorred by the whole idea of torturing any human being and I know it's cliché but one you 'become them'/extremists then all values are lost...

..anyways I guess that I'll give you my thoughts and why I feel conflicted..this might not be a good analogy but it's how I'm thinking atm...you know how we often have hypothetical dilemmas..?..and sometimes these can be about what someone would do to say one person or relatively few people to potentially help the safety of many..?..often people will think about it and think that they would do something that would be totally alien to their beliefs if that actual dilemma was presented to them...whether they actually would or not, we won't know because most people don't have to face such extreme things...anyways, say if this was personal and specific to a member of someone's family/a loved one..or the whole of their family..?..if (hypothetically..)..a person were to somehow discover that their loved ones were at threat of something quite horrific..a certain death maybe..?..and they could possible do something which was to them quite inhumane but that would prevent the death of their loved ones..would they do it..?...obviously that's very personal but if you then also apply it to people who may have to make that decision collectively for their country..a threat to their country which could mean many losses of life...really, what a crappy situation for them to be in because these 'extreme dilemmas' are something that are real to them..?...hmmmm, I honestly don't know Matt..torture of any kind to any human being goes against everything I believe in but I really can't be 'black and white' about this, which also conflicts me lol...because also some people who make these decisions and who do things are good people but people who know that sometimes in this life, very awful things might be necessary..but there possibly are also a few quite sadistic people as well maybe...

..anyway yeah..I'm going to keep thinking about this because I guess it's just so much less complicated when you know that you'll never have to make the decision yourself...and I'm not even sure that my thoughts are along the right lines and that I'm looking at it the right way...