[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So my research and experience is moot and you are the expert who knows beyond a shadow of a doubt it will either lead to an eating disorder or is otherwise dangerous?

Thanks professor

I'm not an expert at all, it just doesn't take much reading to find out that the VAST majority of actual experts would never recommend extreme dieting unless absolutely medically necessary, under the care and direction of a physician.

But of course, the UK is sick of experts, and I guess that extends to the ones who are saying such dumb things as "eating normally and healthily is better than purging your system of essential nutrients with juice fasting".

Which is what we should be calling it by the way; juice fasting. It is a form of fasting. It doesn't "cleanse" anything.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not at all, you just need to realise if you create a thread people will comment

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You think people can think "Ooh I've worked hard this week I'll treat myself to a takeaway or a beer" and that means they're not aware of the negative impact? Give over Kizzy. You're simplifying people and their actions to fit your own narrative that you're part of an enlightened few.

If you don't like goading don't quote a post I make to someone else and take it out of its context.

You began this exchange Kizzy, not me.

You had no context.. it was a random statement you made with nothing to back it up.

I've spoken to many at work who think just that.. you insisting they are aware doesn't mean they are. I've given you an example of those who think it's fine and acceptable but for some reason you aren't able to process that.

I haven't suggested I'm in an enlightened few.. you're suggesting everyone is enlightened and they are aware of the damage they are doing.. for the last time the guys I've spoke to don't see it as damage at all.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You had no context.. it was a random statement you made with nothing to back it up.

I've spoken to many at work who think just that.. you insisting they are aware doesn't mean they are. I've given you an example of those who think it's fine and acceptable but for some reason you aren't able to process that.

I haven't suggested I'm in an enlightened few.. you're suggesting everyone is enlightened and they are aware of the damage they are doing.. for the last time the guys I've spoke to don't see it as damage at all.

It did have context. AGAIN, it was in response to Caprimint. Why it's so difficult for you to comprehend I have NO idea.

"People at work have takeaways and drink booze" =/= that "people" think that doing that is not unhealthy.

I've not suggested everyone is enlightened, I've suggested people are aware of what is and is not good for them (in general) not everyone is educated on food and lifestyles but general alcohol/takeaways=bad is an obvious one. But we as humans will just make a decision based on our own pleasures and whether we find the possible consequences a risk worth taking or not. That's not enlightened in the slightest.

Your conclusion that 'person eats takeaway = person doesn't understand how unhealthy it is' just does not work.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Not at all, you just need to realise if you create a thread people will comment

I'm well aware of that thankyou, I didn't expect all responses to be positive either, however when they become rude and condescending that's not acceptable.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Maybe introducing some solid food into your diet would allow you to comprehend the written word better?

If you were here for any other reason than to bait youd see I have added an evening meal.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

If you were here for any other reason than to bait youd see I have added an evening meal.

AGAIN... I'm here because YOU quoted me Kizzy. I didn't address you at all until you took it upon yourself to take offence to a comment that was not about you.

Congratulations on eating food, I guess?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not an expert at all, it just doesn't take much reading to find out that the VAST majority of actual experts would never recommend extreme dieting unless absolutely medically necessary, under the care and direction of a physician.

But of course, the UK is sick of experts, and I guess that extends to the ones who are saying such dumb things as "eating normally and healthily is better than purging your system of essential nutrients with juice fasting".

Which is what we should be calling it by the way; juice fasting. It is a form of fasting. It doesn't "cleanse" anything.

Have you any idea how ignorant this sounds? I have explained I was deficient nutritionally, full of inflammation and pre diabetic. I decided to flood my system with nutrient dense juice and your response is I'm 'purging' my system of 'essential' nutrients... which are those then?

As your research is so much more superior to mine and aligned with every expert in the world then well done you

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It did have context. AGAIN, it was in response to Caprimint. Why it's so difficult for you to comprehend I have NO idea.

"People at work have takeaways and drink booze" =/= that "people" think that doing that is not unhealthy.

I've not suggested everyone is enlightened, I've suggested people are aware of what is and is not good for them (in general) not everyone is educated on food and lifestyles but general alcohol/takeaways=bad is an obvious one. But we as humans will just make a decision based on our own pleasures and whether we find the possible consequences a risk worth taking or not. That's not enlightened in the slightest.

Your conclusion that 'person eats takeaway = person doesn't understand how unhealthy it is' just does not work.

It's not a conclusion it's a result of actual conversations you insisting they are aware is not my experience talking to them. Bang on that they must all you like...

I'm aware who you were quoting, the comment was given no context imo.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

It's not a conclusion it's a result of actual conversations you insisting they are aware is not my experience talking to them. Bang on that they must all you like...

I'm aware who you were quoting, the comment was given no context imo.

It was? The post I responded to that something doesn't have to be long term to be dangerous. You assumed I was stating juicing is dangerous. I wasn't.

I don't care what your co-workers think or do, my point is using them as proof that people who do xyz do not know abc is incorrect.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

AGAIN... I'm here because YOU quoted me Kizzy. I didn't address you at all until you took it upon yourself to take offence to a comment that was not about you.

Congratulations on eating food, I guess?

I replied to a comment is all.. I am allowed, it's a forum.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It was? The post I responded to that something doesn't have to be long term to be dangerous. You assumed I was stating juicing is dangerous. I wasn't.

I don't care what your co-workers think or do, my point is using them as proof that people who do xyz do not know abc is incorrect.

Right so how does that work then? Are my Co workers not people?.. :/

I asked you many times what you were referring to and got nothing back.. no context whatsoever.
I haven't assumed anything.

It's clear you don't want to explain what you were referring to or you can't.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Have you any idea how ignorant this sounds? I have explained I was deficient nutritionally, full of inflammation and pre diabetic. I decided to flood my system with nutrient dense juice and your response is I'm 'purging' my system of 'essential' nutrients... which are those then?

As your research is so much more superior to mine and aligned with every expert in the world then well done you

All-liquid diets have a much faster digestive transit which means your body literally doesn't have time to process the nutrients that are there. I'm not even saying that the juice is bad or not rich in nutrients - I love a nice green juice - but it would be much more sensible to be having at least one small solid meal with wholegrains (unless gluten intolerant), fruit and veg and lean proteins.

Nutrient wise, unless your juicing contains more than fruit & veg I can basically guarantee that it's deficient in amino acids and proteins, and no matter what you argue, solid fibre is essential to gut health and digestive transit.

If the juice diet was nutritionally complete, you would be able to do it indefinitely. If you tried to do it for 3+ months you'd end up very ill and to be blunt, if you tried to do it for 6+ months you would die.

Any diet that you can't carry on indefinitely is a crash diet and there's very little real evidence that any form of crash diet is a net benefit for the human body... and spades of evidence that it can be damaging.

What reason can you really give for juice cleansing for a month before re-introducing solids after a month (because if you didn't you'd die) over and above simply overhauling your diet with clean whole food? The idea seems to be that it "gets rid of cravings" for high energy foods like sugars and fats, and thus makes it easier to stick to a better diet afterwards? So purely a willpower issue?

Do you know WHY it eliminates cravings for high energy foods? Because cravings work on a hierarchy of what your body needs urgently. Once the essentials are covered int he diet, it switches into "energy store" mode, craving fats and sugars to build a fat reserve because we're still primates instinctually expecting "a hard winter" where we'll need the fat stores.

But those energy store cravings come secondary to the essentials. You come out of a "cleanse" craving good, clean foods over sugars and fats because your body is craving basic life-sustaining nutrients and proteins due to being deprived of them for weeks. You should be somewhat worried that cravings for junk (energy dense food) have been miraculously replaced with cravings for basic nutrition.

And like I said, if it was nutritionally complete you'd be able to do it for 3 months, a year, 10 years. You will die if you try to. You will 100%, definitely, go into multi-organ failure due to protein deficiency.

Not safe. People shouldn't do it. By all means strip back your diet like I said, juice for breakfast, juice for dinner even, but please follow prof. TS's advice and have a healthy whole food lunch.

If being literally unable to do that through willpower is the issue then that's a completely separate problem that needs a completely different sort of work.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Right so how does that work then? Are my Co workers not people?.. :/

I asked you many times what you were referring to and got nothing back.. no context whatsoever.
I haven't assumed anything.

It's clear you don't want to explain what you were referring to or you can't.

Don't want or can't?

It's literally there for you to read.

Caprimint said "Kizzy isn't planning on doing it forever..." as a reason it is fine. I simply responded that something doesn't have to be permanent/long term to be dangerous. So "not doing it forever" isn't a good reason for ANYTHING to be seen as fine.

You took that to mean I was stating outright that juicing is dangerous. I corrected you.

Really not sure what needs to be explained. It's LITERALLY self explanatory.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

All-liquid diets have a much faster digestive transit which means your body literally doesn't have time to process the nutrients that are there. I'm not even saying that the juice is bad or not rich in nutrients - I love a nice green juice - but it would be much more sensible to be having at least one small solid meal with wholegrains (unless gluten intolerant), fruit and veg and lean proteins.

Nutrient wise, unless your juicing contains more than fruit & veg I can basically guarantee that it's deficient in amino acids and proteins, and no matter what you argue, solid fibre is essential to gut health and digestive transit.

If the juice diet was nutritionally complete, you would be able to do it indefinitely. If you tried to do it for 3+ months you'd end up very ill and to be blunt, if you tried to do it for 6+ months you would die.

Any diet that you can't carry on indefinitely is a crash diet and there's very little real evidence that any form of crash diet is a net benefit for the human body... and spades of evidence that it can be damaging.

What reason can you really give for juice cleansing for a month before re-introducing solids after a month (because if you didn't you'd die) over and above simply overhauling your diet with clean whole food? The idea seems to be that it "gets rid of cravings" for high energy foods like sugars and fats, and thus makes it easier to stick to a better diet afterwards? So purely a willpower issue?

Do you know WHY it eliminates cravings for high energy foods? Because cravings work on a hierarchy of what your body needs urgently. Once the essentials are covered int he diet, it switches into "energy store" mode, craving fats and sugars to build a fat reserve because we're still primates instinctually expecting "a hard winter" where we'll need the fat stores.

But those energy store cravings come secondary to the essentials. You come out of a "cleanse" craving good, clean foods over sugars and fats because your body is craving basic life-sustaining nutrients and proteins due to being deprived of them for weeks. You should be somewhat worried that cravings for junk (energy dense food) have been miraculously replaced with cravings for basic nutrition.

And like I said, if it was nutritionally complete you'd be able to do it for 3 months, a year, 10 years. You will die if you try to. You will 100%, definitely, go into multi-organ failure due to protein deficiency.

Not safe. People shouldn't do it. By all means strip back your diet like I said, juice for breakfast, juice for dinner even, but please follow prof. TS's advice and have a healthy whole food lunch.

If being literally unable to do that through willpower is the issue then that's a completely separate problem that needs a completely different sort of work.

None of this is backed up with anything it's just your usual stream of consciousness style advice.

Why do I need insoluble fibre if there is nothing to transit?

Where is the evidence that sufficient nutrients are not absorbed in transit?

Where is the evidence that 6 months would kill you?

If you had any real interest in my motives you would have read and understood the reasoning and logic but you obviously havent and don't.

[Marsh.]

I think it's pretty well known if you spent 6 months consuming nothing but juice you probably wouldn't reach 6 months.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Don't want or can't?

It's literally there for you to read.

Caprimint said "Kizzy isn't planning on doing it forever..." as a reason it is fine. I simply responded that something doesn't have to be permanent/long term to be dangerous. So "not doing it forever" isn't a good reason for ANYTHING to be seen as fine.

You took that to mean I was stating outright that juicing is dangerous. I corrected you.

Really not sure what needs to be explained. It's LITERALLY self explanatory.

So you were talking abut juicing... you were mocking me earlier for 'assuming' you were?

Caprimints comment you quoted specifically referred to me and juicing :/
As I said you could have at any time clarified that you did or didn't feel it was dangerous short term and the conversation go from there...but you chose not to.

Anyhoo your I've pandered to the pedant in you too long, I do not want this thread closing because you failed to get your point across adequately.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I think it's pretty well known if you spent 6 months consuming nothing but juice you probably wouldn't reach 6 months.

That's subjective... it wouldn't be for everyone no but the super morbidly obese would be ok I'd say.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So you were talking abut juicing... you were mocking me earlier for 'assuming' you were?

Caprimints comment you quoted specifically referred to me and juicing :/
As I said you could have at any time clarified that you did or didn't feel it was dangerous short term and the conversation go from there...but you chose not to.

Anyhoo your I've pandered to the pedant in you too long, I do not want this thread closing because you failed to get your point across adequately.

You assumed I said juicing was dangerous. I said I wasn't referring to juicing when you first asked me.

You completely ignoring that and accusing me of not answering the question is your problem, not mine.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Tbf, something doesn't have to be done forever or longterm to be dangerous.

Originally Posted by caprimint

NOT you thinking a juice cleanse is dangerous when there's the Coronavirus to worry about!

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I never said it was either way.

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Go on... in all seriousness what do you think is dangerous about this juice cleanse surely you have some thing to back up such a claim?... something I can counter with my experience of it.

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Again... I never said it was. I was disputing the claim that something can't be dangerous if it's only short term.

Yes, I'M the pedant.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

That's subjective... it wouldn't be for everyone no but the super morbidly obese would be ok I'd say.

I seriously, seriously hope that no one has stumbled upon this thread and is actually listening to this Kizzy because if you go anywhere near 6 months without a viable protein source, which you cannot possibly be getting from fruit and veg juice, your body will start to shut down. That's not an opinion it's biological fact. ****ing hell.

[Toy Soldier]

"We can live a whole lifetime (after infancy) without eating any carbohydrate, and we can live for 6 months or more without eating any fat, depending on how much fat we have on our bodies to begin with. However, we have no way to store proteins and can only live for a maximum of 70 days without eating any protein.

Since we can’t make proteins from scratch, and we can’t store excess protein, protein is the only macronutrient that we absolutely must eat regularly in order to thrive. Without enough protein in the diet, the body will have no choice but to break down muscle fibers to release the protein it needs to survive."

https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/protein/

If you must have a link. Please stop telling people they can go 6 months on fruit & veg if they're fat enough. Please.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You assumed I said juicing was dangerous. I said I wasn't referring to juicing when you first asked me.

You completely ignoring that and accusing me of not answering the question is your problem, not mine.










Yes, I'M the pedant.

You haven posted the comment you reacted to which specifically named me and mentioned juicing... whatever.

I'm glad we agree then

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You haven posted the comment you reacted to which specifically named me and mentioned juicing... whatever.

I'm glad we agree then

Yet I'm the pedant.

You must be very insecure to be this bloody defensive.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I seriously, seriously hope that no one has stumbled upon this thread and is actually listening to this Kizzy because if you go anywhere near 6 months without a viable protein source, which you cannot possibly be getting from fruit and veg juice, your body will start to shut down. That's not an opinion it's biological fact. ****ing hell.

There is protein in veg you know. .. :/

Beetroot, kale. ..loads. Get a grip ts!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by caprimint

But that's the point isn't it? Kizzy isn't planning on doing it forever so it's not really as bad as y'all are making it out to be?

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Tbf, something doesn't have to be done forever or longterm to be dangerous.

Originally Posted by caprimint

NOT you thinking a juice cleanse is dangerous when there's the Coronavirus to worry about!

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I never said it was either way.

There you go.

The context hasn't changed. Nor has me CLEARLY stating what I was saying.