[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I agree that a legal court actually found them guilty Joey, and because of this fact they have no choice than to legally comply with that finding in their future business conduct - no matter how unfair they feel that verdict to be.

This was one of my very points in my condemnation of the recent 'anti-Tory'
protesters/rioters who rioted against a lawful act of Government - the same protesters/rioters which some on here defended in their NOT accepting a legal decision.

Double standards.

So - yes - it was a court who tried and delivered a verdict in this case, but my point was that the case would not have been brought had the shop not been deliberately targeted by Gay Activist Lee with the specific intention of making a 'Test Case' of it.

When you write: "It could have been avoided definitely, they could have simply baked the cake, made a nice profit from it and left it all at that, they never had to personally approve of what was on the cake."

Being owners who personally received the order, they could not have avoided 'personally' approving or disapproving what was on the cake.

I am all for Gay Rights' and 'Equality', but this entire business to me is cynical and unsavoury, unnecessary, and - like the banning of Nativity plays in some of our schools and the banning of the wearing of crucifixes in some of our workplaces because they might 'offend' a minority - is yet one more example of extending 'equality' on one section of society by imposing inequality on another.

The Equality And Human Rights Commission has been needlessly and cynically exploited once again - in my opinion.

Not double standards at all,everyone has a right to protest in the UK it is not an 'illegal' act.
Those 'few' who caused bother and did wrong will have acted illegally. which everyone said almost universally on here,
They will face consequences for their actions too,those who were caught and any who are afterwards in the future.

It is not illegal however to arrange a protest or hold one,the right to demonstrate is a legal one in the UK.
Discrimination against a person or a section of society however is not legal in the UK, and these people if they hold such strong uncompromising beliefs,should not, in my view be in any business that involves the public at all.

As this court rightly judged.
It doesn't matter who brought the case, the case was then heard and was found to be illegal and a discriminatory act.

Your poor example of the protests which had some bother,would not be found to be an illegal act, although the actions of some on that march,(not the march itself), were, and if the police decide action is needed, then it will be.

[MrWong]

It's much more likely that the religious folks were just bigoted, rather than the whole thing being a set up.

Daniel McArthur gave an interview to a newspaper and claimed that the majority of his 60-plus workforce were unaware of his family's faith, so how would the customers know?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31096066.html

They didn't even advertise themselves as a christian bakers.

Arriving at court ahead of the hearing, Daniel McArthur, flanked by wife Amy, said he was putting his trust in God.

That worked out well for him.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by MrWong

It's much more likely that the religious folks were just bigoted, rather than the whole thing being a set up.

Daniel McArthur gave an interview to a newspaper and claimed that the majority of his 60-plus workforce were unaware of his family's faith, so how would the customers know?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31096066.html

They didn't even advertise themselves as a christian bakers.



That worked out well for him.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MrWong

It's much more likely that the religious folks were just bigoted, rather than the whole thing being a set up.

Daniel McArthur gave an interview to a newspaper and claimed that the majority of his 60-plus workforce were unaware of his family's faith, so how would the customers know?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31096066.html

They didn't even advertise themselves as a christian bakers.



That worked out well for him.

the radical gay activists were the bigotted violent ones here yet again

[MrWong]

Originally Posted by the truth

the radical gay activists were the bigotted violent ones here yet again

What activists? When were they bigoted and violent?

Here's the judgement if you are confused about the verdict.

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Jud...s%20Bakery.htm

[the truth]

LETS HOPE THE business people fight this bigotry. they've got every right to turn down business from events like this if its against their beliefs.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by the truth

LETS HOPE THE business people fight this bigotry. they've got every right to turn down business from events like this if its against their beliefs.

If Asher's had been as cynical as Lee and been prepared to lie and be tactical, they could merely have said that they had refused the order because the message stipulated on the cake decoration was actually urging 'law abiding' citizens to support an illegal act - Gay Marriage.

Could any court actually have convicted with just such a defense? If so would it also be deemed legal to put up posters urging; "Support Pedophilia, Murder British Soldiers, Burn Down Police Stations - the list is fascinating.

It rarely pays to be straightforward and honest.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If Asher's had been as cynical as Lee and been prepared to lie and be tactical, they could merely have said that they had refused the order because the message stipulated on the cake decoration was actually urging 'law abiding' citizens to support an illegal act - Gay Marriage.

Could any court actually have convicted with just such a defense? If so would it also be deemed legal to put up posters urging; "Support Pedophilia, Murder British Soldiers, Burn Down Police Stations - the list is fascinating.

It rarely pays to be straightforward and honest.

So supporting Gay Marriage is comparable to supporting Peadophillia and murder?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

So supporting Gay Marriage is comparable to supporting Peadophillia and murder?

he didnt say that, what a disingenuous comment

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by the truth

LETS HOPE THE business people fight this bigotry. they've got every right to turn down business from events like this if its against their beliefs.

I don't think people should have to comply to something just because it's the rules. Think of the apartheid - would you seriously still say "oh they should just use the water fountain designated for them.. it's the rules"?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If Asher's had been as cynical as Lee and been prepared to lie and be tactical, they could merely have said that they had refused the order because the message stipulated on the cake decoration was actually urging 'law abiding' citizens to support an illegal act - Gay Marriage.

Could any court actually have convicted with just such a defense? If so would it also be deemed legal to put up posters urging; "Support Pedophilia, Murder British Soldiers, Burn Down Police Stations - the list is fascinating.

It rarely pays to be straightforward and honest.

Gay marriage isn't illegal.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Gay marriage isn't illegal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/patr...b_6463320.html

[Liam-]

They'd make a lot more money if they just let the gays have cake.

They're not being asked to walk them down the aisle or help consummate the wedding, they're asking them to do their job, which they claim to be professionals at, letting your own personal bigotry get in the way of completing a job, is most unprofessional.

Give them their cake, take their money and keep your business open with a good name, is it really that difficult?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by the truth

he didnt say that, what a disingenuous comment

It's just more of the same dishonest attack from this moderator The Truth, he shouldn't even be allowed on a Serious Debate Forum let alone be a Moderator.

My views might be too Right wing for most of the Left Wing active majority on here but I do not lie or deliberately continually misrepresent anyone else's view.

I do really try to be fair - and whilst I can become annoyed by some member's posts (as I know they too can be by mine) I NEVER allow personal dislike to creep into my posts because I genuinely DO NOT dislike anyone on here. I do not know anyone well enough for them to emotionally 'move' me enough to dislike them.

This Moderator's continued infantile personal attacks are becoming tedious though and makes me want to not post.

[LeatherTrumpet]

being a business is NOT the same as being a citizen

rules are not applicable

you are awarded status by registering as a business and you must abide by a Different code

the baker misunderstood this and paid the price

its about education

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=Liam-;7789722]They'd make a lot more money if they just let the gays have cake.

They're not being asked to walk them down the aisle or help consummate the wedding, they're asking them to do their job, which they claim to be professionals at, letting your own personal bigotry get in the way of completing a job, is most unprofessional.

Give them their cake, take their money and keep your business open with a good name, is it really that difficult?[/QUOTE]

Exactly, it shouldn't be difficult at all should it.

Live and let live is a good motto to live by and if we all with respect to people of great faith, lived by the words of religious teachings,no one would be able to do very much of living,always being stifled.

I was born a Roman Catholic, we had Nuns telling us as young children, we should always sleep on our backs with our arms folded across our chest, in case we died through the night so we were ready to meet our Saviour.
I soon walked off from the doctrines of the church and saw the rules of them all and stances of them all as 'more of being about control' than true worship.

In the Christian gospels,to only the words and actions attributed to Jesus,he makes no condemnations, he never advocates judgement,he talks about coming together not dividing.
Most divisions have been created by Christian churches over the centuries,over those putting their personal views into things rather then the one teaching Christianity.

Catholics murdering protestants and vice versa over the centuries,(whatever happened to 'thou shalt not kill),I see Christians coming out of church in Winter at the christmas services and driving past people struggling to walk in snow,or icy paths.
It seems to me, that Christian values are only relevant if everyone conforms to what is stated as the norm by 'man managed' churches.
Whereas, the whole basis of christianity particularly is about loving, caring for and reaching out to all,putting ones own needs and prejudices aside.
Condemning not and judging not.

While I have held on to some elements of the faith I was born into, if I do have any times I enact any of it, it is from those words in the gospels only,not all the other additions put there by man.
Men like Paul, who it seems if he got up in a good mood, he preached love and brotherhood for all.
If he got up in a bad mood, he was full of spite and fury against any who crossed him.
Religion should not be like that.

Whatever my practice of faith may ever be, it should never be,if I am a Christian, that I push it into others lives that don't want it to be.
It also means I should not turn away and judge others for their lifestyles either.

I said a while ago, I have Jewish friends,a family, who have a business, their Sabbath day is a Saturday, they should do no work.
That business,since it is a business for the public to use, is open on Saturdays.
Their religious rules set aside.

That is what,in my opinion at any rate, should have happened with this cake shop incident.
Keep their faith intact as to their own opinions and living it out,in their private lives,while still providing the public service of the business to all who want it and not take a judgemental stance.

[AnnieK]

[QUOTE=joeysteele;7789913]

Originally Posted by Liam-

They'd make a lot more money if they just let the gays have cake.

They're not being asked to walk them down the aisle or help consummate the wedding, they're asking them to do their job, which they claim to be professionals at, letting your own personal bigotry get in the way of completing a job, is most unprofessional.

Give them their cake, take their money and keep your business open with a good name, is it really that difficult?[/QUOTE]

Exactly, it shouldn't be difficult at all should it.

Live and let live is a good motto to live by and if we all with respect to people of great faith, lived by the words of religious teachings,no one would be able to do very much of living,always being stifled.

I was born a Roman Catholic, we had Nuns telling us as young children, we should always sleep on our backs with our arms folded across our chest, in case we died through the night so we were ready to meet our Saviour.
I soon walked off from the doctrines of the church and saw the rules of them all and stances of them all as 'more of being about control' than true worship.

In the Christian gospels,to only the words and actions attributed to Jesus,he makes no condemnations, he never advocates judgement,he talks about coming together not dividing.
Most divisions have been created by Christian churches over the centuries,over those putting their personal views into things rather then the one teaching Christianity.

Catholics murdering protestants and vice versa over the centuries,(whatever happened to 'thou shalt not kill),I see Christians coming out of church in Winter at the christmas services and driving past people struggling to walk in snow,or icy paths.
It seems to me, that Christian values are only relevant if everyone conforms to what is stated as the norm by 'man managed' churches.
Whereas, the whole basis of christianity particularly is about loving, caring for and reaching out to all,putting ones own needs and prejudices aside.
Condemning not and judging not.

While I have held on to some elements of the faith I was born into, if I do have any times I enact any of it, it is from those words in the gospels only,not all the other additions put there by man.
Men like Paul, who it seems if he got up in a good mood, he preached love and brotherhood for all.
If he got up in a bad mood, he was full of spite and fury against any who crossed him.
Religion should not be like that.

Whatever my practice of faith may ever be, it should never be,if I am a Christian, that I push it into others lives that don't want it to be.
It also means I should not turn away and judge others for their lifestyles either.

I said a while ago, I have Jewish friends,a family, who have a business, their Sabbath day is a Saturday, they should do no work.
That business,since it is a business for the public to use, is open on Saturdays.
Their religious rules set aside.

That is what,in my opinion at any rate, should have happened with this cake shop incident.
Keep their faith intact as to their own opinions and living it out,in their private lives,while still providing the public service of the business to all who want it and not take a judgemental stance.

This is completely off topic Joey but I'm interested, do the Jewish family work themselves on Saturdays? I only ask because my mum worked for a Jewish company for many years and they opened on Saturday but none of the family worked...I would imagine your friends are possibly not orthodox as I have many Jewish friends who would never dream of working on a Saturday as they are very strict about their sabbath. They would close early on a Friday during the inter to also observed the sabbath.

[joeysteele]

[QUOTE=AnnieK;7790006]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This is completely off topic Joey but I'm interested, do the Jewish family work themselves on Saturdays? I only ask because my mum worked for a Jewish company for many years and they opened on Saturday but none of the family worked...I would imagine your friends are possibly not orthodox as I have many Jewish friends who would never dream of working on a Saturday as they are very strict about their sabbath. They would close early on a Friday during the inter to also observed the sabbath.

Yes, admittedly the parents don't but the other family members do so.
The only time none of them do so and then they bring in staff to do so,is around the passover and Yom Kippur periods.
Otherwise yes, they do.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

It's just more of the same dishonest attack from this moderator The Truth, he shouldn't even be allowed on a Serious Debate Forum let alone be a Moderator.

My views might be too Right wing for most of the Left Wing active majority on here but I do not lie or deliberately continually misrepresent anyone else's view.

I do really try to be fair - and whilst I can become annoyed by some member's posts (as I know they too can be by mine) I NEVER allow personal dislike to creep into my posts because I genuinely DO NOT dislike anyone on here. I do not know anyone well enough for them to emotionally 'move' me enough to dislike them.

This Moderator's continued infantile personal attacks are becoming tedious though and makes me want to not post.

Oh look, you're using the mod card once again when you've been asked about your opinion. How predictable.

I asked you a question, it was not a personal attack. Stop trying to silence the opinions of people who disagree with you. If you can't handle a debate or your opinions being questioned then you shouldn't post in SD. You get personal with me in every topic and it's gotten quite boring now. You can't actually debate with people, you just get petty and snipe at them.

[erinp5]

Coleen Nolan has sparked widespread controversy after clumsily comparing gay rights to supporting ISIS during a discussion on Loose Women.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3aiGDumKz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Youtube video

Notice who on the panel she pointed to as going in to ask for such a cake ,not Janet lol


Katie Hopkins @KTHopkins ·
Sorry to see @NolanColeen being slated in the press *kills herself laughing at chubsters downfall'. Gay rights are not the same as ISIS love

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Oh look, you're using the mod card once again when you've been asked about your opinion. How predictable.

I asked you a question, it was not a personal attack. Stop trying to silence the opinions of people who disagree with you. If you can't handle a debate or your opinions being questioned then you shouldn't post in SD. You get personal with me in every topic and it's gotten quite boring now. You can't actually debate with people, you just get petty and snipe at them.

You're doing nothing but describing yourself and the text I have emboldened is a deflective lie pulled - like a white rabbit - out of the same hat you talk through when you have no answers and need to resort to fallacious insult.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

You're doing nothing but describing yourself and the text I have emboldened is a deflective lie pulled - like a white rabbit - out of the same hat you talk through when you have no answers and need to resort to fallacious insult.

You are deflecting. I asked you a question and you ignored it because you know i caught you out.

Why are you comparing Gay marriage to Peadophilia and Murder?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You are deflecting. I asked you a question and you ignored it because you know i caught you out.

Why are you comparing Gay marriage to Peadophilia and Murder?

Only in YOUR teeny weenie 'ickle infantile mind have I compared: "Gay marriage to Peadophilia and Murder" as you have even been told by another Forum Member.

So you have caught only yourself out and now childish one - will you stop badgering?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Only in YOUR teeny weenie 'ickle infantile mind have I compared: "Gay marriage to Peadophilia and Murder" as you have even been told by another Forum Member.

So you have caught only yourself out and now childish one - will you stop badgering?

Deflecting again.

How is a civil rights issue like gay marriage comparable to a criminal issue like Peadophillia and Murder? You've still not given me an answer.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Deflecting again.

How is a civil rights issue like gay marriage comparable to a criminal issue like Peadophillia and Murder? You've still not given me an answer.

If you are not sufficiently bright enough or learned enough to be able to discern how they are comparable within the contextual parameters of my usage, then I suggest you employ your time more beneficially by enrolling on a Further Education night course at college instead of hectoring and foolishly trying to bait me.