[TomC]

True I guess.

I really liked Africa when I was watching it. The premerge is pretty great, and enjoy Lindsey, Kelly, Linda and Ethan they were my favourites

[Macie Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

Funny how the first two seasons started with bad decisions on who to take to the final 2.

Kelly didn't really lose because of who she took to the end. She didn't have a chance against either one of them because she lost more and more of the jury's respect each week.

[JerseyWins]

Originally Posted by TomC

True I guess.

I really liked Africa when I was watching it. The premerge is pretty great, and enjoy Lindsey, Kelly, Linda and Ethan they were my favourites

I liked Lindsey a lot the first episode. Kelly & Linda weren't included that much so idk about them yet and Ethan seems pretty good.

Also idk if my take on the first episode sounded negative or not but so far I enjoyed watching the chaos.. it was just kind of a strange first episode and not the best editing.

Originally Posted by Macie Lightfoot

Kelly didn't really lose because of who she took to the end. She didn't have a chance against either one of them because she lost more and more of the jury's respect each week.

I doubt she would have lost to Rudy. I think the other side respected her game enough to give her the win.

It was close against Richard, who dominated the game, but I guess that might be partly due to Susan's jury speech.

[JerseyWins]

Omg these cow blood/milk shots are naaasty.

[TomC]

yeah that really turned my stomach.

[JerseyWins]

I thought Clarence would go this time. It's weird that Jessie went when she wasn't even a consideration to go in the edit which is kinda 2/2 now (both boots do make sense though - I guess they were kinda hinted at earlier in the episodes). But before tribal council it was between Kelly, Clarence & the old lady which I can't remember her name. I somewhat liked Jessie but I like Clarence more and he's providing a lot of the entertainment so far.

I like how the dynamics are a complete split in the Samburu tribe. I'll have to at least see another episode first but I don't think I like the older group as a whole aside from Mother Teresa. I think I prefer if Silas & Teresa go with the others instead.

Some strange editing aside, this is a pretty good start to the season.

[Macie Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

I doubt she would have lost to Rudy. I think the other side respected her game enough to give her the win.

It was close against Richard, who dominated the game, but I guess that might be partly due to Susan's jury speech.

Pagong didn't even respect her game in the first place. Kelly flip-flopped in the most weak-willed way and it was transparent for everyone to see. Just look at Greg's confessional before the FTC or Colleen's voting confessional or anything else from the post-merge. Kelly wanted out of the alliance because it conflicted with her morals, but she realized how much she benefitted from it so instead of outright flipping to Pagong she just threw stray votes that didn't matter. It was hardly a protest and it just made her look terrible. People hated Richard's ego but they respected him; everyone just kinda rolled their eyes and muttered under their breath about Kelly.

and besides, nobody voted based on the game. There wasn't even a game, it was the first season. Pretty much every person's vote came down to who they liked more and people LOVED Rudy. Just remember the whole F3 scenario -- Rich threw the final IC and told Kelly that there was no way she couldn't take him to the end bc she'd be a moron to bring Rudy. and then she did exactly that. Everyone knew Rudy was a lock to win in the end.

[JerseyWins]

Everyone on Borneo loving Rudy is news to me.

Also, Kelly played both sides even though she stuck with her alliance which is worth something. People on the cast mentioned this and gave credit to it and it's what got Susan/Richard mad, that she was getting on Pagong's good side.

Although it's true she didn't really do this strategically, but morally, so that kinda takes credit away from her - still, she built bonds with the other side. I still don't imagine her losing to Rudy regardless when her vs. Richard was a 5-4 vote I think? Unless people (like Gervase) changed their vote to Kelly literally only because of that speech Susan gave for Richard to win.

[Macie Lightfoot]

I think the tricky part about it is that you're trying to relate the votes to the games that were played, but we gotta remember that this was the very first season of any show of this kind and there was literally no gameplay or precedent or expectation. The jury wasn't sitting there thinking "wow Kelly sure played a good game by working both sides" or "hmm, it was impressive of Rich to start an alliance." It was all about the personal politics on the island and that's where Kelly failed. If it was her and Rudy in the F2, Sean's not voting for her to win, Sue's not voting for her to win, Rich isn't voting for her to win, Greg isn't voting for her to win... that's it right there. I don't even think all three of the remaining votes (Gervase, Colleen, and Jenna) would be entirely on lock either, especially when those votes were all begrudging to begin with and Colleen said in her voting confessional that she came into the FTC wanting to vote for Richard and Gervase spent half of his voting confessional bitching about Sue being a sore loser.

Kelly lost everyone's respect because of how back and forth she was about the alliance and her relationship with Pagong. I think one of the few things that Borneo actually could have done better was to focus on Kelly's vote for Sean after the J for Jenna boot. Pagong was trying to oust Rich and Tagi was taking out Jenna, and Kelly's so conflicted that she just throws a random vote for Sean out there when there was no way she could have thought that it would make a difference. She likes Pagong more and wants to side with them, but she also realizes how much she's benefiting from the Tagi alliance so her form of rebellion was utterly passive and ineffective. By this point, Tagi is completely fed up with Kelly's bull**** and Pagong is toast and knows that they are because Kelly is claiming to be so conflicted and torn but isn't doing anything to help their cause. Pagong's done trying with her since their days are numbered and Tagi is just riding Kelly out as a number and couldn't get rid of her because of her Challenge streak.

I just don't see how Kelly gains any votes by being in the final two against someone more likable than Richard. Colleen's voting confessional for Kelly to win is her drunkenly rambling about how this whole thing is awful and she should "just take it and do what she wants with it, I don't care" and "buy a raft and start an adventure tour company and do something good with it and maybe this will make you be....... nice or something." Gervase's confessional was just about Kelly taking the money and the victory and shoving it in Sue's face. Those are 67% of Kelly's votes to win and they aren't even pro-Kelly votes. It was just four people voting for Rich to win and two people voting for him to lose. Jenna idk, I would need to rewatch her voting confessional and analyze some.

[JerseyWins]

It makes sense since it's the first season and all but 1) when did anyone say they liked Rudy? I just watched the season and I don't remember people particularly liking him (there weren't too many opinions on him in general and I know he didn't really like many of the others and barely even liked to socialize with them). I guess they might've liked him more than Richard though. 2) People did mention Kelly playing both sides in a positive light and the people involved DID start seeing how strategies were relevant to this game. Furthermore, she actually formed relationships with people from Pagong which Richard/Susan/Rudy didn't even seem to attempt and were playing it like a war. But Rudy is probably the least guilty of that out of the 3 so yes if people are voting strictly on how much they like the person then I guess Rudy is the tougher one to beat.

The thing is it's unclear how they really are voting as first-time voters so at the same time I guess I can't say she definitely made the wrong choice. That same bitterness/dislike could've been applied to Rudy because they just didn't like the Tagi alliance. I think Greg (especially) & Sean (who knows) voted for Richard because they respected him in the end but could have easily voted for Kelly over Rudy. Colleen/Gervase/Jenna just didn't like the Tagi crew and most likely still vote for Kelly. Sean might've just voted for Richard because he never got to him in his alphabetical order voting strategy.

All I know is Rudy would never beat Kelly in today's Survivor but this isn't today's Survivor so fair enough maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway:

Originally Posted by Macie Lightfoot

Gervase spent half of his voting confessional bitching about Sue being a sore loser.

Colleen's voting confessional for Kelly to win is her drunkenly rambling about how this whole thing is awful and she should "just take it and do what she wants with it, I don't care" and "buy a raft and start an adventure tour company and do something good with it and maybe this will make you be....... nice or something." Gervase's confessional was just about Kelly taking the money and the victory and shoving it in Sue's face.

Legends

[JerseyWins]

4 episodes into Africa and I like almost everyone on this cast. There's plenty of people that are still pretty irrelevant though so if/when they get more involved things might change. Brandon is the only one I kinda dislike so far (and Carl but he's already gone).

I'm definitely enjoying this season. Both tribes are really entertaining.

[JerseyWins]

On episode 7 now getting close to tribal council.

Kelly is emerging as my #1 favorite. Either her or Ethan but Ethan has been irrelevant lately. Kelly has been rising up my ranks and now she's killing it this episode! I was starting to think Brandon might be ok as I found him a bit funny last episode but he's awfully annoying this episode after Lindsey went.

I hope Clarence stays and I actually wish Lex would go... starting to not like him; at best he's just been average... actually kinda egotistical and in a boring manner.

[JerseyWins]

Clarence going

Fun watching that little journey he had though after starting so poorly.

[TomC]

Episode 8 is one of the standouts of the season, even if it's a bit unsavoury in terms of how things pan out. Sorry I'm being vague, don't wanna spoil it

I loved Kelly too <3

[JerseyWins]

Decided to get one more episode in. Definitely a great episode with a disappointing result.

This was just confirmation that Brandon sucks. Lex too but he's so insane over that one extra vote that now I find it sort of funny actually.

The mixed up tribe dynamics on this season is definitely pretty interesting. These last 3 boots are really hurting the season for me though. </3

Obviously next episode Brandon will either be picking a side or everyone will turn on him but I'm actually really not sure which will happen so that's good.

[TomC]

I remember hating Linda, Silas, Lindsey, Clarence and Kelly going in succession. I remember really hating the Final 8, because Tom, Lex and Frank were there, and the rest were meh, however #itgetsbetter

[TomC]

Side note: How the hell was Sandra a villain in HvV? Or is the cast reveal news article I read incorrect?

[Macie Lightfoot]

Frank is great check your damn facts Tom.

[TomC]

Originally Posted by Macie Lightfoot

Frank is great check your damn facts Tom.

We've discussed this before

Answer this question:

Originally Posted by TomC

Side note: How the hell was Sandra a villain in HvV? Or is the cast reveal news article I read incorrect?

[JerseyWins]

I could see her portrayed as a villain in Pearl Islands. Mainly the way she played but also being rude to people when she's angry. She was slightly villain-esque... although it's a little bit of a stretch but a couple of heroes and villains don't make the most sense.

[rk3388]

Didn't she do something like dump the fish and let Rupert take the blame? I watched it ages ago so can't say for sure but I seem to remember this happening

[Macie Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

It makes sense since it's the first season and all but 1) when did anyone say they liked Rudy? I just watched the season and I don't remember people particularly liking him (there weren't too many opinions on him in general and I know he didn't really like many of the others and barely even liked to socialize with them). I guess they might've liked him more than Richard though. 2) People did mention Kelly playing both sides in a positive light and the people involved DID start seeing how strategies were relevant to this game. Furthermore, she actually formed relationships with people from Pagong which Richard/Susan/Rudy didn't even seem to attempt and were playing it like a war. But Rudy is probably the least guilty of that out of the 3 so yes if people are voting strictly on how much they like the person then I guess Rudy is the tougher one to beat.

The thing is it's unclear how they really are voting as first-time voters so at the same time I guess I can't say she definitely made the wrong choice. That same bitterness/dislike could've been applied to Rudy because they just didn't like the Tagi alliance. I think Greg (especially) & Sean (who knows) voted for Richard because they respected him in the end but could have easily voted for Kelly over Rudy. Colleen/Gervase/Jenna just didn't like the Tagi crew and most likely still vote for Kelly. Sean might've just voted for Richard because he never got to him in his alphabetical order voting strategy.

All I know is Rudy would never beat Kelly in today's Survivor but this isn't today's Survivor so fair enough maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway:

Legends

Rudy was a 70-something Navy SEAL with a distinguished history taking part in an experimental television show where strangers are stranded on an island together, have to create their own society, and then vote people out by one by one. There's no one who better fits the theme of survival than Rudy, whom everyone liked and respected anyway. It's common accepted knowledge that he would've smoked either Richard or Kelly in a final two. People hated that final two -- the whole theme of that final tribal council was "we don't particularly like or respect either of these people and we sure as **** don't want to reward them with a million dollars, we just want this whole thing to end." Like, 75% of the cast viewed the idea of an alliance and thought it was ruining the integrity of the game, and so did the majority of America. The jury hated Richard for being the pompous ringleader of the evil alliance and did not respect Kelly for having a wishy-washy moral dilemma over the alliance, lamenting over how much it affected her but ultimately being spineless enough to go along with it since it benefited her. That jury would've jumped at the opportunity to give just about anyone other than Rich or Kelly the money. I know Kelly made relationships with people, but she did absolutely nothing to help and protect her friends and go against the alliance she was morally against when she totally had the power to do so. Her closeness with Pagong just made her actions even more of a slap in the face, like "I thought you were my friend and I thought you were so conflicted about this alliance, but you're still voting with them every week or just throwing your vote away and we are all being voted out as a direct result of your actions, or lack thereof."

As for Greg and Sean, Sean's alphabetical order was a bunch of **** lol. Like Kelly, it was a spineless way to benefit from an alliance while appearing to be noncommittal. You cannot tell me that he did not even consider the effect of voting alphabetically, that the entire Pagong tribe came alphabetically before Tagi, and that the Tagi alliance would be able to just dogpile on his vote each and every week, and that he was passively assisting in the Pagong slaughter. Sean kinda suffered the Kelly thing where he had some major blindspots about how he was perceived and how his actions affected others, and he thought he would be perceived as noble and righteous but really just alienated everyone around him. Similar to Kelly but in complete denial of it. And then for Greg, let's just look at his confessional before the final TC:

It was interesting to watch Kelly because I felt like Kelly went through, like, identity crises on TV, but not really crises but, like, various identities on TV. "I'm a hippy but I'm not a hippy," "I'm a double agent but I'm not lying," "I'm here for the money but I'm not," ya know, it was interesting to watch the various identities unfold.

That really best sums up how the jury viewed Kelly and why she didn't win. Wishy-washy, noncommittal, passive, and frustratingly contradictory. Not a winning combination then, not a winning combination now.

Originally Posted by JerseyWins

All I know is Rudy would never beat Kelly in today's Survivor but this isn't today's Survivor so fair enough maybe I'm wrong.

To quote Sandra, "I don't know about thaaaaaaaat!" Likability and respect still trumps all. We just saw the jury give Adam a million dollars largely because they liked him more than Hannah and Ken. The jury cared more about moves Adam tried to make but failed to make more than moves that Hannah actually made because they had next to no respect for Hannah.

[JerseyWins]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I have no clue what the thoughts were when it was airing live and because you hit me with the "I don't know about thaaaat!" line which is one of my favorite confessionals ever.

I just can't imagine Rudy getting many votes for who he was and how little he did or even interacted (that was shown). I think you're exaggerating how much they hated Kelly.. sure they got tired of her but a decent amount of them still had a good relationship with her nonetheless. Maybe they soured on her more than there was shown because yeah the votes for her in the end weren't enthusiastic.

Anyway, in today's Survivor I guess I'd view both Rudy & Kelly as two perfect goats to take to the end but Kelly is actually capable of getting some credit on some seasons. If gameplay is factored in, Rudy would never win Survivor the way he played in Borneo unless maybe with a very bitter jury. He's exactly the person that's always dragged to the end and usually gets on some people's nerves along the way.

[JerseyWins]

Brandon & Frank going is a very good turn of events. Frank was just boring to me, I started to somewhat like him at times but I mostly just liked him & Teresa as a duo trying to get themselves back in the game.

Tom is kinda amusing to me even though I didn't like him much at first; pretty funny this past episode as well (which happened to be the first boring episode in a while though).

Originally Posted by rk3388

Didn't she do something like dump the fish and let Rupert take the blame? I watched it ages ago so can't say for sure but I seem to remember this happening

She let Christa take the blame for it.

[TomC]

Yeah tbh I think Episodes 10-12 of Africa is probably one of the most boring stretches of episodes of the first ten seasons