[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Is it possible that Nigel Farage will go down in the history books as a British Hero?

I understand that's hard for some people to believe right now.

Youtube video

One of the greatest speeches of our time.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by wannashag

I think it only fair that I post some remain proposition.

Although I don't agree with him and think that he contradicts himself and assumes he has facts. I can't take away from Clegg the fact that he's a very good debater.

Youtube video

He is a pretty good speaker but without the charisma.

[arista]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...unctional.html

Lord Owen wants Out of the EU

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

One of the greatest speeches of our time.

WHAT? What was great about it?

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...-bored-cost-uk "This site gives the last released treasury report and where the rebates go.

Farage keeps giving out gross figures which is misleading. Why doesn't he just give out net figures and fully inform us of the deductions?"

I'll answer your good post a little at a time Red: The below is from 'Full Facts':

"During the LBC leader's debate UKIP leader Nigel Farage claimed the UK's membership fee of the EU is "Ł55 million a day" - the equivalent of about Ł20 billion in total per year.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg disputes the claims, saying "If you actually count the rebate, if you count what British farmers, for instance, receive from the Common Agricultural Policy, it is less than half that figure".

It's reasonable to describe Ł55 million as our "membership fee", but it ignores the fact that we get money back as well. In other words, Ł55 million a day represents the UK's 'gross contributions' to EU institutions. Our net contributions are the equivalent of Ł33 million per day on these terms.

Gross not net

UKIP have used the figure in the past as part of their reports analysing how much the EU costs Britain. From these, it's clear that the Ł55 million a day - the equivalent of about Ł20 billion a year - is only one part of what they see as the overall cost of the EU, factoring in the likes of regulation costs, lost jobs and the Common Agricultural Policy.

Ł20 billion is roughly what the UK government and households paid to EU institutions in 2012: these include payments to the central EU budget as well as customs duties and agricultural levies.

But the UK gets some of that money back, some through the rebate which reduces the UK's contributions to the EU Budget, and some through the Agricultural Guarantee Fund to farmers. That was worth as much as Ł8 billion in 2012.

So on balance, the UK's contributions to the EU amount to some Ł12 billion a year or about Ł33 million a day.

Thus, this independant article corroborates Farage's figures. Farage is a VERY TRUTHFUL, HONEST POLITICIAN.

https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-...ee-55-million/

[bitontheslide]

i don't honestly think it comes down to arguments over money or immigration. It comes down to whether you want to be a part of Europe and be inclusive or not. The cost of that is largely irrelevant to me. If everything was just judged by its monetary value, the world would be a very poor place

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

i don't honestly think it comes down to arguments over money or immigration. It comes down to whether you want to be a part of Europe and be inclusive or not. The cost of that is largely irrelevant to me. If everything was just judged by its monetary value, the world would be a very poor place

I think on a subject as complex as this it is best to respond in manageable sections.

'Being part of Europe' and not being in the EU are not mutually exclusive.

[Livia]

It's a good time for a referendum if you're in the "out" camp. Immigration is high and rising and that's going to be a big part of why people vote. It scares people... and we're being told continually told it's going to get worse. I think it's one of the reasons why a complete arsehole like Trump is being even considered in the US.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...unctional.html

Lord Owen wants Out of the EU

This man in the history of politics has turned so many times, its a wonder he knows which way he is looking.

He was one of the originals who left the Labour party, slated Tony Benn and Foot for wanting to leave the EUand formed a whole new party,which was totally Europe friendly.
Now he wants to leave he says.

Many figures in political history from Churchill to even now,get my attention and I try to learn as much from their experiences as I can, however this waste of political space and Shirley Williams too can get lost for me.

It doesn't surprise me he now wants to leave if he feels the EU has become some sort of challenge, his attitude was always when something wasn't going his way all the time, he picked up his ball and ran off to play with someone else.

I read he was nicknamed Dr Death in the 80s, never has a name been so appropriately given to a politician,in my view.
I wouldn't give him or Shirley (I could win a seat but couldn't hold it) Williams, airtime myself.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Without Google

Can you name the head of the European Commission?
Can you name your own MEP?
Can you tell me how the rules are made or unmade?

Jean-Claude Juncker

Vicky Ford, David Campbell Bannerman and Henry Van Orden.

I could take a stab at an explanation but I'd need allllllllllllllllll afternoon and I would be making a lot of it up.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Without Google

Can you name the head of the European Commission?
Can you name your own MEP?
Can you tell me how the rules are made or unmade?

the Jean Claude Junker guy is head of the European Commission.
Yes I know my MEPs I have talked with 2 of them from different parties.

Your 3rd question is not so easy, often even I think they make them up as they go along but I can say that too about UK govts as to how they go about things they do too.

[kirklancaster]

A FEW TRUTHS:

Compare Britain's Economic performance with that of the EU. We are performing more in line with Germany and the US than the woeful and increasingly economically ailing Eurozone:



DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

The UK has just 5.5% unemployment at the moment. Now compare this fact with the Employment Figures of the other Eurozone Countries:



DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

Despite Germany - that Grand Architect of what has become the EU - bolstering the dismal manufacturing growth figures of the EU, it is impossible to manipulate them enough to make them appear anything but unhealthy and on a downward spiral since we entered in 1973.

As the chart below clearly shows:



DOES IT LOOK AS THOUGH WE 'NEED' THE 'SICK OLD MEN' OF EUROPE? OR DO THEY NEED US?

WE ALL BUT ABANDONDED OUR COMMONWEALTH COUSINS WHEN WE FELL FOR EDWARD HEATHS LIES AND JOINED THIS CORRUPT, WASTEFUL, AND INEFFICIENT BUREAUCRATIC NIGHTMARE, BUT LOOK AT HOW THAT SAME COMMONWEALTH IS OUTPERFORMING THE DISMAL EU. AND THAT IS WITHOUT 40 YEARS OF NET 'PAYMENTS' FROM US OF Ł33 MILLION PER DAY - EACH AND EVERY DAY.

OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT, OUT

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

This man in the history of politics has turned so many times, its a wonder he knows which way he is looking.

He was one of the originals who left the Labour party, slated Tony Benn and Foot for wanting to leave the EUand formed a whole new party,which was totally Europe friendly.
Now he wants to leave he says.

Many figures in political history from Churchill to even now,get my attention and I try to learn as much from their experiences as I can, however this waste of political space and Shirley Williams too can get lost for me.

It doesn't surprise me he now wants to leave if he feels the EU has become some sort of challenge, his attitude was always when something wasn't going his way all the time, he picked up his ball and ran off to play with someone else.

I read he was nicknamed Dr Death in the 80s, never has a name been so appropriately given to a politician,in my view.
I wouldn't give him or Shirley (I could win a seat but couldn't hold it) Williams, airtime myself.

Spitting Image, what a wonderful program, sadly missed

[Livia]

Great post Kirk... didn't want to quote it as it's so big... but a great post.

[bitontheslide]

I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them.

It provides stability. What price can we associate with that? How many unneeded wars will it stop?

Money really isn't the be all of everything, there are more fundamental principles at stake

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

Great post Kirk... didn't want to quote it as it's so big... but a great post.

Thank you Liv. You KNOW just how much a Brexit means to me.

[joeysteele]

..what the graph shows is what we have done while still a full member of being in the EU not while out of it.
Just a thought.

[bitontheslide]

By exiting Europe to stop immigration, aren't we putting up a metaphorical wall. Something that the pope very recently branded unchristian?

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by wannashag

Nobody's proposed that.

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=bitontheslide;8534992]"I wont quote your post either Kirk, but isn't that what the whole point of Europe is? To safeguard countries like Greece when they go through hard times, to generally increase the standard of living of the whole of Europe. By doing so, you end up with a prosperous region that is not looking with envy at what his neighbour has, and hence want to invade them."

The text which I have emboldened BOTS may be the IDEOLOGY of the EU, but the REALITY is far removed from that ideal.

Look no further than Greece.

The EU have NOT 'safeguarded' Greece in her times of trouble, only EXACERBATED her problems.

Lending money is NOT distributing collective wealth in order to 'safeguard' a member country - it is only INCREASING that poorer country's fiscal problems when it struggles to REPAY the loan.

What did the EU do then?

LEND GREECE MORE MONEY SO THAT IT COULD USE VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE NEW LOAN TO REPAY THE INSTALLMENT ON THE ORIGINAL LOAN.

The only beneficiaries of such financial loan-sharking are those who lend the money in the first place.

True 'safeguarding' by the EU of poorer countries who are in trouble, would have seen massive reallocation of some of its massive collective funds as GRANTS to help underpin such a country as Greece to see it through its troubles, but this is just a Europhile 'Pipe Dream' because the EU is NOT one UNITED EUROPE as it pretends to be, and there is NO one 'FISCAL BROTHERHOOD' with which to attend to such problematic countries needs - just greed and more greed.

As for; "Invading" countries; With a very conservative estimate of a TOTAL of over 102,000 migrants in 2015 to just TWO COUNTRIES and ignoring others - 54,660 in Italy and 46,150 in poor embattled Greece - a number in excess of those who landed in 2014 - I would say that most of Europe -- The UK included -- is ALREADY BEING INVADED.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

..what the graph shows is what we have done while still a full member of being in the EU not while out of it.
Just a thought.

As I will PROVE in later posts Joey - What that graph shows is WHAT THE UK HAS ACHIEVED DESPITE BEING IN THE CORRUPT, INEFFICIENT, WASTEFUL, UK MONEY DRAINING EU.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

of course they are. Farage's main argument to come out of Europe is to stop immigration. That IS putting up a wall against it.

Immigration is but ONE of Farage's 'arguments' - and that is CONTROLLING immigration NOT stopping it altogether.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

As I will PROVE in later posts Joey - What that graph shows is WHAT THE UK HAS ACHIEVED DESPITE BEING IN THE CORRUPT, INEFFICIENT, WASTEFUL, UK MONEY DRAINING EU.

What any graph will not however prove is what 'might have been' or 'what might not have been' had we been out of the EU, which are the things we need to hear from the out campaign but with full substantiation of such claims too.

Whereas any graph showing what we have done these last years are substantiated with the fact they have been done and achieved while being a full member of the EU.
No 'mights' or 'might nots'.

If anything to me, your graph demonstrates how well we can do as a Nation within the EU.
You cannot really show any graphs that will show we can better,as good or even worse if we leave with any real guarantees as to same.
All that can be done is hope and supposition.

Whereas as in your graphs,the facts say we have done that while being a full member of the EU,so we know that with no suppositions.
The money draining argument is just an argument, you cannot prove more money could be wasted or even less by any UK govt out of the EU than is wasted now.

Without that proof, all we have is supposition that things will be alright, and if what you say was right, (and I disagree that it is in my opinion), that the UK has done that well despite being in the EU,then being in the EU has not hindered at all in the way you and the out people and UKIP in particular are trying to say it has.

We are actually then doing well as a member of the EU, to now expect us to take a leap off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU,is for me folly,when we can see exactly where we are and where we are going now as a full member of the EU.

[bitontheslide]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Immigration is but ONE of Farage's 'arguments' - and that is CONTROLLING immigration NOT stopping it altogether.

Trumps wall will have a door in it .... yet he is unchristian

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

What any graph will not however prove is what 'might have been' or 'what might not have been' had we been out of the EU, which are the things we need to hear from the out campaign but with full substantiation of such claims too.

Whereas any graph showing what we have done these last years are substantiated with the fact they have been done and achieved while being a full member of the EU.
No 'mights' or 'might nots'.

If anything to me, your graph demonstrates how well we can do as a Nation within the EU.
You cannot really show any graphs that will show we can better,as good or even worse if we leave with any real guarantees as to same.
All that can be done is hope and supposition.

Whereas as in your graphs,the facts say we have done that while being a full member of the EU,so we know that with no suppositions.
The money draining argument is just an argument, you cannot prove more money could be wasted or even less by any UK govt out of the EU than is wasted now.

Without that proof, all we have is supposition that things will be alright, and if what you say was right, (and I disagree that it is in my opinion), that the UK has done that well despite being in the EU,then being in the EU has not hindered at all in the way you and the out people and UKIP in particular are trying to say it has.

We are actually then doing well as a member of the EU, to now expect us to take a leap off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU,is for me folly,when we can see exactly where we are and where we are going now as a full member of the EU.

If our economic recovery and stability is due to the fact that we are in the EU - then why is the EU itself so critically ailing economically?

I agree that NO ONE can 'prove' absolutely what might or might not have transpired had we NOT been a member of the EU, and when I wrote 'prove', I should have used the word 'show' or similar, but you of all people should recognise the value and validity of both 'A Preponderance Of The Evidence', and 'The Balance of Probabilities' - both of which I hope that my intended posts will contain.

I WILL answer your concerns about "leaping off a cliff not knowing where we may land or what state we'd be in after by leaving the EU" but as you can appreciate this very convoluted and complex subject demands comprehensive and factual posts, and these take time.