[JoshBB]

With all the facts and examples out there, I'm really surprised people still use the same dressed-up phrases without actually forming ones' own opinions on it. We aren't discussing dictatorships such as USSR or North Korea here, I mean countries like the nordic ones where democratic socialism has made their economies very strong while also protecting the poorest.

Let's use Norway for example here, arguably the most socialist of the Scandinavian countries. They have the 1st highest Human Development Index (HDI) in the world.. of 0.944. The UK has the 14th highest HDI (of 0.907). Not an awful lot of difference, but it goes to show that socialism does not crush aspiration here, you could argue from these statistics that encourages it moreso than the capitalist model.

A pretty big difference though, is the inequality in income. Continuing with Norway as an example, they have the 1st lowest level in the world - a Gini coefficient of just 23.5 - this is classed as a 'low' level of inequality. The UK however has a Gini Coefficient of 31.6, only 33rd in the world. We are classed as a 'medium' level of inequality.

And as a last indicator of economic 'strength', we'll look at budget surplus and deficits. Norway has the highest surplus in the world - of 16.6%. The UK, however, has a deficit of 4% (please correct me if this is wrong). The main reason for this is the higher levels of taxation in Norway - the taxation that supposedly drives away big business and makes you end up with bigger deficits overall.. myth busted here, I guess.

So why do people still say Socialism is 'economically illiterate'?

[arista]

"idiotic' concept?"

Because young fellow it does not Work
Even New Labour Blair
was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Capitalism

[arista]

never use Norway as a Example
numbers nothing like UK
and a Cold nation
not typical in this World.

Try Canada.

why are your teachers failing you?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by arista

"idiotic' concept?"

Because young fellow it does not Work
Even New Labour Blair
was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Capitalism

You can't use any examples of British government for the last 40 odd years. Blair sat a lot further right than Thatcher but she's the one who set the ball rolling for every government who came there after. Socialism in this country has been in rapid decline since Thatcher introduced her elite economics and the birth Neoliberalism.

[arista]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You can't use any examples of British government for the last 40 odd years. Blair sat a lot further right than Thatcher but she's the one who set the ball rolling for every government who came there after. Socialism in this country has been in rapid decline since Thatcher introduced her elite economics and the birth Neoliberalism.

Of Course
it can not work in the World Markets of 2016
or even 2020.

[DemolitionRed]

We have been raised to be brain washed against any ideas of socialism Josh and yet many of us have grown up with that small (s) all around us. The results of socialist policy brought us the NHS, free education for all, libraries, post offices, nationalized industries like gas, electricity and water. On that journey of dismantling our social system we've been conditioned into believing socialism in any form is a disastrous idea.

Its interesting that our modern day governments have adopted the same cadre as Antonio Gramsc (a Marxist thinker)..."If you can occupy peoples' heads, their hearts and their hands will follow".

I found a brilliant article the other day Josh, I'll send it to you.

[Kizzy]

Because the media makes sheep out of the gullible.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Because the media makes sheep out of the gullible.

That's the beauty of the WWW though Kizzy. We now have a wealth of knowledge at our fingertips which means many of us don't have to rely on what the media spews out.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by arista

never use Norway as a Example
numbers nothing like UK
and a Cold nation
not typical in this World.

Try Canada.

why are your teachers failing you?

Also you can't afford to drink alcohol in Norway. The Norwegians come to Denmark and Germany to buy booze.

[GiRTh]

The short answer is 'money'. Socialism as a concept is bound to decrease income for high earner. When you start putting less money in people pockets then there is always gonna be a problem.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

We have been raised to be brain washed against any ideas of socialism Josh and yet many of us have grown up with that small (s) all around us. The results of socialist policy brought us the NHS, free education for all, libraries, post offices, nationalized industries like gas, electricity and water. On that journey of dismantling our social system we've been conditioned into believing socialism in any form is a disastrous idea.

Its interesting that our modern day governments have adopted the same cadre as Antonio Gramsc (a Marxist thinker)..."If you can occupy peoples' heads, their hearts and their hands will follow".

I found a brilliant article the other day Josh, I'll send it to you.

Firstly to Josh,I think maybe out of fear of Socialism is why people who lean to the idea of socialism get put downs and why it is viewed as unworkable and not relevant to UK society.
That view is wrong now in my view,although I did once hold the view that socialism may not be right for the UK up until I was 19.

What often gets missed is that while capitalism in the main has dominated UK economical and social policy making, here we are in 2016 with a still ailing economy in the main and at this time social policy that should be abhorrent to any decent society.
So in effect capitalism has failed the UK for many decades now.

Excellent post from you DemolitionRed and you are right,without possibly the only real likely socialist govt in the UK between 1945 and 1951,there would have been no NHS.
The Conservative party voted against near all its passage through that govts time in power.
I also now hold the view that water, gas and electricity should be under State ownership again too.
The privatisation of those industries turned out to be the biggest con ever and all it resulted in from the so called competition plan, was horrific increases in bills as to percentage of income.

However what many hate most is the 'protective' element of socialism as to the weakest and most vulnerable.
This capitalist govt would make a charge for the air the most vulnerable breathe if it could get away with it, and sadly it is getting away with way too much against that grouping of individuals already.

Maybe socialism would not work but for the UK, it has never really had a good run as to having a chance to, save for that 6 years I mentioned earlier.
It should not be looked down on and we had 2 periods where a capitalist govt had a good run, between 1951 and 1964,then again between 1979 and 1997, an amazing 18 year unbroken run of power absolute that in the end resulted in recessions and massively high unemployment.

The running down of the NHS in that time too had it almost on its knees in 1997.
There really has not been a real socialist administration since 1951,the Labour govts of both 1964 to 1970 and 1974 to 1979 mostly could barely govern due to poor overall majority status.
Then between 1997 to 2010, what we had from the disastrously named 'new' Labour was 13 years of just milder capitalism.

It is looked down on out of fear, of those who have more than enough already now, wanting more and more for themselves as to power and wealth.
Terrified of anything that may make the lives and livelihoods of those at the lowest end of the scale in any way better to their loss, even any small loss.
I make no secret I have gone full circle on this issue and from all I have observed from my own experience of capitalist govt since 2010,fills me with horror as to that continuing and why I hold the hope the UK wakes up and really looks to a new direction for the future after 2020.

To many and likely the vast number of new and young voters in 2020, hopefully a good number of socialist policies will not be seen as an old and tired way to govern but one that is actually really new to the UK again and that it gets a proper chance this time too,if it happens.

There has not been the opportunity of a more socialist govt in the UK since 1945 to 1951 one.
He was tied down as to policy between 1997 and 2001 admittedly but the way Tony Blair squandered the chance between at least 2001 and 2005 with another massive overall majority,to really bring a more socialist plan into play and ensure decent compassionate social policies were in place to always protect the most vulnerable, was despicable at best.
Anyway it is fear,why socialism is looked down on and why we get the ridiculous scaremongering as to it too, as to it and to those who advocate it.

While avoiding the absolute heartlessness and failure too of endless capitalist govts in the UK over the decades.
Going on still now under this almighty example from this probably unjust govt, for me demonstrating near all that is wrong with solely capitalist ideals now.

[bitontheslide]

Socialism is not an idiotic concept as such, but it is when it is considered to the exclusion of all other concepts. The same is equally true of Capitalism in this country.

Social policies are exactly what is required in some circumstances, but we have such blinkered thinking in this country where we have to follow one thing or the other exclusively that the value and benefit is lost. Quite simply, at the moment, in such circumstances, capitalism is the lesser of the evils to the majority

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

The short answer is 'money'. Socialism as a concept is bound to decrease income for high earner. When you start putting less money in people pockets then there is always gonna be a problem.

This.

The people who are in control of the information, are the people who would be financially harmed by socialism.

[DemolitionRed]

I love what I'm reading but alas, we have just got in from a bit of a pub crawl and so I'm going to read all of this again in the morning when my mind is clear of alcohol.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Simple answer

Live a little

People are selfish

[DemolitionRed]

I'm going to make an attempt one more time but so far this morning, this site is losing my posts as I click 'post'

@Joeysteele, I have so much more to say but this is a test run for now.

What we have to ask ourselves is, can capitalism and democracy work together? I believe they very much can; we only have to look towards the Nordic countries to see how one compliments the other.

Democracy is a socialist ideal and capitalism is merely something that compliments that ideal in our modern age. The reason it doesn't work in Britain, though our government would have us believe it works quite splendidly, is because our government (I'm talking past and present and not just the conservatives) wanted the biggest piece of the pie.

Blair was just part of the big experiment. An ideal that was seeded by Friedrich von Hayek, a philosophic-economist back in the 40s. Its an ideal that should never of taken off because its artificial and constricts democracy. Thatcher was a dedicated follower of von Hayek and so was Blair, in fact Blair was determined to make as much of a mark on the Neo-liberal revolution as Thatcher did. Thatcher was hailed a hero of her time because she was the birth of a new and exciting ideals.

The birth of Neo-liberalism was hugely beneficial to individuals but then, that’s what NL is, its individual and not inclusive and thus creates (in the long term) a very unequal society by implementing radical exclusion.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Socialism is not an idiotic concept as such, but it is when it is considered to the exclusion of all other concepts. The same is equally true of Capitalism in this country.

Social policies are exactly what is required in some circumstances, but we have such blinkered thinking in this country where we have to follow one thing or the other exclusively that the value and benefit is lost. Quite simply, at the moment, in such circumstances, capitalism is the lesser of the evils to the majority

Spot on. Socialism/Capitalism are both great concepts providing we don’t get bogged down in the detail and refuse to move with the times.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I'm going to make an attempt one more time but so far this morning, this site is losing my posts as I click 'post'

@Joeysteele, I have so much more to say but this is a test run for now.

What we have to ask ourselves is, can capitalism and democracy work together? I believe they very much can; we only have to look towards the Nordic countries to see how one compliments the other.

Democracy is a socialist ideal and capitalism is merely something that compliments that ideal in our modern age. The reason it doesn't work in Britain, though our government would have us believe it works quite splendidly, is because our government (I'm talking past and present and not just the conservatives) wanted the biggest piece of the pie.

Blair was just part of the big experiment. An ideal that was seeded by Friedrich von Hayek, a philosophic-economist back in the 40s. Its an ideal that should never of taken off because its artificial and constricts democracy. Thatcher was a dedicated follower of von Hayek and so was Blair, in fact Blair was determined to make as much of a mark on the Neo-liberal revolution as Thatcher did. Thatcher was hailed a hero of her time because she was the birth of a new and exciting ideals.

The birth of Neo-liberalism was hugely beneficial to individuals but then, that’s what NL is, its individual and not inclusive and thus creates (in the long term) a very unequal society by implementing radical exclusion.

I have always felt the 2 can work together as long as those advocating the 2 separate ideals do not try to scupper the other.
I agree and therefore have nothing to add to the bit I have put in bold of your post above.

That post and other posts from you I have to add, that I always find really interesting to read and also learn from too.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Socialism is not an idiotic concept as such, but it is when it is considered to the exclusion of all other concepts. The same is equally true of Capitalism in this country.

Social policies are exactly what is required in some circumstances, but we have such blinkered thinking in this country where we have to follow one thing or the other exclusively that the value and benefit is lost. Quite simply, at the moment, in such circumstances, capitalism is the lesser of the evils to the majority

I disagree the funneling up to shareholders/institutions and banks has created a top heavy world with massive wealth for the minority. For a society to function effectively there has to be eradication of certain barriers poverty, crime, basically what were named as the 5 giants. How with a capitalist model will this be viable for the majority?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This.

The people who are in control of the information, are the people who would be financially harmed by socialism.

Unless the socialism is national?...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I disagree the funneling up to shareholders/institutions and banks has created a top heavy world with massive wealth for the minority. For a society to function effectively there has to be eradication of certain barriers poverty, crime, basically what were named as the 5 giants. How with a capitalist model will this be viable for the majority?

There are two things wrong with British politics as they stand today:

1) We don’t know the Conservative ideology, if indeed they have one. We’ve all heard of the ‘ENDGAME’ at least if we follow politics but none of us really know what the ‘ENDGAME’ is or means. Cameron is trying to re-invent British Capitalism and redistribute the wealth of our country to the ‘ruling classes’ and it appears he’s doing this whilst still manipulating happy votes from the working man. We now work for the government when the government should be working for the people.

2, Britain sat back whilst government after government bastardized capitalism
If we want to reform capitalism back to its first principles, then we have to put legislation in place that will benefit everyone and stop championing policies that make the rich richer and the poor poorer. A free market only works if it can fund its welfare state, once that fails and clearly it has then we’ve reached a dead end and our nation starts to tumble backwards which it is doing.

The only way we can stop this train wreck is to change the tide of public thought…In steps Jeremy Corbyn. Whilst Corbyn’s socialist policies are for the most part unthinkable to the larger majority of the British public (at the moment) he’s waking us up and making us pay attention. He’s removed that tight lid that stopped us seeing inside and he's given birth to a new interest in politics. He’s reaching out to our future politicians. Even if Corbyn never gets in, in the next four years he’s going to put a spanner in the works of ‘neo-liberal’ ideas. Someone had to do it and I believe he was the right man for the job and whether we want to vote Tory, UKIP, LD or Labour, we should all be thankful for that.

[Kizzy]

Doesn't appeal to working people/ 'strivers'... Oh. he does, so much.
While drones throw away their workers rights and die for the poor shareholders in their organisations you have to look on in awe and wonder if the scales will ever fall.
The endgame as I see it is the destruction of the welfare state and the dawning of the new age of self sufficiency or social Darwinism.
We I believe are seeing the infancy of the cull.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The only way we can stop this train wreck is to change the tide of public thought…In steps Jeremy Corbyn. .

Or... Get Scottish Indy, scream "freeeeedddooommmm" like Mel Gibson and run far away from Westminster politics.

(And then vote out the SNP)

10 year plan innit.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Doesn't appeal to working people/ 'strivers'... Oh. he does, so much.
While drones throw away their workers rights and die for the poor shareholders in their organisations you have to look on in awe and wonder if the scales will ever fall.
The endgame as I see it is the destruction of the welfare state and the dawning of the new age of self sufficiency or social Darwinism.
We I believe are seeing the infancy of the cull.

Oh crikey yes!

David J. Blacker is a philosopher who sums up the ‘endgame’ of neo-liberalism

He believes that because we live in a nation that heavily relies on technology and less and less on human labor, we will move more and more away from ‘exploitation’ towards ‘elimination’ where the mass of humanity isn’t needed anymore.

The theorist Joan Roberts once said; “The only thing worse than being exploited by capitalism is not being exploited by capitalism”. I didn’t really understand those words until recently.

Blacker predicts the ‘endgame’ will include a massive assault on public education because as more and more schools are privatized for profit (academies), when those schools cease to make profits, which they inevitably will, state schools will eventually just close their doors; But that won’t matter because if educated people are no longer needed, there’s no longer a need to educate them. People can be trained in certain skills and just become workers of the state and education will become ‘natural selection’.
By reducing education more and more (this is already happening in the US) we can streamline our workers and those workers become just a means to an end.

If the playing field doesn’t extrapolate from its present trends and if we don’t find an alternative blueprint/template for our future then ‘endgame’ will be societal collapse.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Or... Get Scottish Indy, scream "freeeeedddooommmm" like Mel Gibson and run far away from Westminster politics.

(And then vote out the SNP)

10 year plan innit.

We've got a boat TS so we will be off