[jaxie]

Originally Posted by JTM45

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!

Democracy is NOT ''the rule of majority''. Talk about 'the blind leading the blind'.

Democracy; a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

You just want to grasp onto a referedum result that was gained by the use of lies and ignorance.
If you didn't you'd have no problem with people voting now that they are better informed on the possible detrimental consequences of leaving the EU and now that they know that lies were used by the leave campaign which has been admitted.

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed for another vote since you oppose Brexit.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed since you oppose Brexit.

Opposition, counter-politics and protest have been essential pillars of democracy since its infancy in ancient Greece... it's built into the very theory of democracy itself.

I'd suggest, jaxie, that if you want to understand democracy you might need to go a little further than "The dictionary". I'd say start with Aristotle and Plato's "Republic", then work your way up through modern political theory.

I don't know if this is "horribly patronising OMG" or whatever, I also don't particularly care... the idea that you can define and grasp a complex and vast political theory like modern democracy via a two-line dictionary definition is utterly ridiculous .

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Opposition, counter-politics and protest have been essential pillars of democracy since its infancy in ancient Greece... it's built into the very theory of democracy itself.

I'd suggest, jaxie, that if you want to understand democracy you might need to go a little further than "The dictionary". I'd say start with Aristotle and Plato's "Republic", then work your way up through modern political theory.

I don't know if this is "horribly patronising OMG" or whatever, I also don't particularly care... the idea that you can define and grasp a complex and vast political theory like modern democracy via a two-line dictionary definition is utterly ridiculous .

You are out of context. You seem to have a thing for me TS. I clearly rattle your cage.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed for another vote since you oppose Brexit.

democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...lish/democracy

[Kizzy]

''The researchers released their finding as an “exclusive” to a single news source – Buzzfeed – on Friday which then presented the findings with a heavy dose of analysis from one of the authors but with no substantive explanation of the methodology.

Buzzfeed also presented the findings in a series of charts which gave the appearance that they were showing levels of support for various propositions in the manner of a conventional opinion poll. Confusion was added by the fact that the headline findings presented by Buzzfeed did pertain to rough percentages of the population.

The result was that most journalists - including the Independent's - followed up the Buzzfeed story without fully grasping the methodology.

The researchers did make details of their methodology available on Friday and Saturday to journalists that requested it.

Yet they did not publish the full document online until Sunday afternoon, meaning that for the best part of two days statisticians and the general public were unable to access it and had to rely on partial and flawed media reports.''


In other words, it's total bollocks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/...-a7892216.html

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...lish/democracy

Same thing really, try the Oxford English Dictionary where it points out this is via a majority. You are going to inflate my ego if you keep singling me out to dissect everything I say.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Same thing really, try the Oxford English Dictionary where it points out this is via a majority. You are going to inflate my ego if you keep singling me out to dissect everything I say.

You asked for a dictionary definition, I gave you one, don't shoot the messenger.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You asked for a dictionary definition, I gave you one, don't shoot the messenger.

I didn't ask but thanks for making me feel super important and special and pointing out the impact I have on you with my posts.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are out of context. You seem to have a thing for me TS.

It's not out of context at all. You believe that opposing Brexit is undemocratic. You are incorrect.

[Jack_]

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not out of context at all. You believe that opposing Brexit is undemocratic. You are incorrect.

This is where you have a problem because I have never said that or anything like it so you are misquoting me. It was another poster who stated it was undemocratic unless there is a second referendum. I have no issues with people in opposition or campaigning but suggesting we should keep voting until we get the answer you want is certainly not democracy.

What I do believe is that it is undemocratic to demand another referendum if you don't like the result but that seems to be a core of Scottish politics so maybe that's why you are supporting that view. I also believe it is undemocratic to put our country into a political experiment and putting treaties into law without asking the people who signed up for a trading market once in 40 years. Not to mention unelected officials making laws for us from Brussels.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that

Democracy isn't something you can shape so it only works for your point of view. Before you start your rant actually read who brought up democracy and in what context. No one has ever said there should be no campaigning. I don't care what Farage said or didn't say he is no longer relevant.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I didn't ask but thanks for making me feel super important and special and pointing out the impact I have on you with my posts.

You suggested queries were taken up with a dictionary... I did that, it didn't correspond with your definition.

It's a debate, your posts are as important as the next persons, no more no less.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Aren't you a Corbyn supporter. You do understand he wants a hard line Brexit don't you. He would be the one most likely to destroy our economy in more ways than one - spend, spend, spend, open borders, higher taxes - he would have a field day.

You are kidding me?!? Just because I support a lot of Corbyn politics doesn't mean I agree with everything he does. I'm left leaning and I take an active interest in politics from both sides... that's it!

As for your following sentence, it comes without content... its just waffle.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You suggested queries were taken up with a dictionary... I did that, it didn't correspond with your definition.

It's a debate, your posts are as important as the next persons, no more no less.

Oh you are suggesting democracy is decided by the minority vote then? I had no idea it worked that way. Thanks for educating us all and here I was thinking a first past the post system had been working in this country for generations.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

I think, like usual, you completely misunderstood his post because you saw what you wanted to see and not what he actually wrote. You also don't understand democracy. People ARE allowed to change their minds, hell we changed our minds about staying in the EU with this referendum, did we not?

Democratic decisions aren't written in stone, if that was the case then why have an election every few years? It's so we can change our minds about the leadership if we wish to do so.

You believe that someone not being happy about a result is 'undemocratic' which is quite simply bull**** and it's just you trying to silence opposing opinions again. People are allowed to be unhappy and voice their opinions, people are allowed to ask for another referendum and, if enough people agree to it then it should go ahead as that's pretty much how the first referendum came to be. You only seem to believe in your own warped version of what democracy is when it suits your agenda, you aren't willing to extend the same rights that allowed this referendum to occur to people of an oposing point of view.

I personally don't want another referendum. They say that, if a dog makes a mess, you should rub their nose in it and they'll learn not to do it again. The Leavers made a catastrophic decision and they should be made to experience the messy results of their terrible choices. Leavers shouldn't get a get out of jail free card in the form of another referendum. They ****ed up, they pay the price. The UK on the brink of collapse will hopefully get people to be smarter when it comes to political choices in the future.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that

It's endlessly hypocritical, they want the benefits of freedom of speech, expression and all those other rights....just as long as it doesn't apply to people who don't share their point of view.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Oh you are suggesting democracy is decided by the minority vote then? I had no idea it worked that way. Thanks for educating us all and here I was thinking a first past the post system had been working in this country for generations.

I haven't suggested anything , you're putting words in my mouth

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

This is where you have a problem because I have never said that or anything like it so you are misquoting me. It was another poster who stated it was undemocratic unless there is a second referendum. I have no issues with people in opposition or campaigning but suggesting we should keep voting until we get the answer you want is certainly not democracy.

What I do believe is that it is undemocratic to demand another referendum if you don't like the result but that seems to be a core of Scottish politics so maybe that's why you are supporting that view. I also believe it is undemocratic to put our country into a political experiment and putting treaties into law without asking the people who signed up for a trading market once in 40 years. Not to mention unelected officials making laws for us from Brussels.

Frequently repeating a vote until the outcome changes would be undemocratic. Holding a second vote after sufficient time for dust to settle, and if there is an indication that there may have been a shift in public opinion, is ENTIRELY democratic.

You would have a point if there were to be 3 "out" votes with repeated votes, then one "in" vote and they stop. In fact, ONE follow up vote showing the same result should be sufficient to prove that the result truly reflects the situation.

But if a slim out vote was to be followed up by a resounding in vote? How is it in any way democratic to go with the result of one just because "it was first!". It's very childish, "finders-keepers!" logic.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'm confused, you voted to leave, that's what you stated on this forum at the time, and now you asking those who voted to leave to get a grip? Hardline Brexit is a myth. There is leaving and there is staying in the EU in some form. I can't see why that is so hard to fathom. We voted to leave, not to be half in and half out.

Because when I voted out, I believed ‘Brexit meant Brexit’ but in the aftermath of that vote, we’ve all had the opportunity to educate, speculate and discuss the sort of relationship we want to keep or abandon with Europe. There’s a myriad of possibilities and those possibilities are now categorized as hard or soft options.

What has become clear is, we are about to jump from one ship and join another. We are swapping one trade deal with the EU for another with America but this new trade deal is much bigger and much more ominous than anything we’ve ever had with the EU. The only way we can shake hands with Trump is to abandon all free trade with Europe. That’s the ‘hard’ option... the one you want and the one I don't want.

I don't vote Tory and I couldn't give a stuff about the government losing it's majority. They led a crap campaign it backfired on them. Labour on the other hand led a surprisingly good campaign. The Tories probably won't last very long without a leader change and another election. Don't fool yourself it was a rejection of Brexit, it was far more a rejection of the manifesto. Had there been a genuine rejection of Brexit the lib dems would be in power. I have no idea why you are trying to pretend Brexit and the government are the same thing. Even that idiot Corbyn supports Brexit.

I never said the Cons did badly because of Brexit I suggested voters don't like the way we are being frog marched out without a deal that will best suit our economy.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

''The researchers released their finding as an “exclusive” to a single news source – Buzzfeed – on Friday which then presented the findings with a heavy dose of analysis from one of the authors but with no substantive explanation of the methodology.

Buzzfeed also presented the findings in a series of charts which gave the appearance that they were showing levels of support for various propositions in the manner of a conventional opinion poll. Confusion was added by the fact that the headline findings presented by Buzzfeed did pertain to rough percentages of the population.

The result was that most journalists - including the Independent's - followed up the Buzzfeed story without fully grasping the methodology.

The researchers did make details of their methodology available on Friday and Saturday to journalists that requested it.

Yet they did not publish the full document online until Sunday afternoon, meaning that for the best part of two days statisticians and the general public were unable to access it and had to rely on partial and flawed media reports.''


In other words, it's total bollocks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/...-a7892216.html

The Independent, what a surprise. Biased rubbish.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

The Independent, what a surprise. Biased rubbish.

It was reported by The Independent and numerous other papers but the source came from Buzzfeed https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/r...pjj#.ax5B6YMYY

It is a legitimate source and probably not one you wanted because it exposes quite a number of things.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Because when I voted out, I believed ‘Brexit meant Brexit’ but in the aftermath of that vote, we’ve all had the opportunity to educate, speculate and discuss the sort of relationship we want to keep or abandon with Europe. There’s a myriad of possibilities and those possibilities are now categorized as hard or soft options.

What has become clear is, we are about to jump from one ship and join another. We are swapping one trade deal with the EU for another with America but this new trade deal is much bigger and much more ominous than anything we’ve ever had with the EU. The only way we can shake hands with Trump is to abandon all free trade with Europe. That’s the ‘hard’ option... the one you want and the one I don't want.



I never said the Cons did badly because of Brexit I suggested voters don't like the way we are being frog marched out without a deal that will best suit our economy.

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by JTM45

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!

It wasn't a lie though. It was made by Farage, who wasn't and isn't in a position to dictate policy. It was a suggestion.