[Vicky.]

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/l...rvey-weinstein

We men can talk and we can tweet all we like about Harvey Weinstein—and I think that, so long as we are finding ways to keep pressure on those who enabled him for so long, we need to. But we can also do something much more difficult, which is to look closest to home, and to our friends.

I think that men are afraid of calling out misogyny for a couple of reasons. One reason is that they fear they are misogynists themselves. Another reason is that they are worried about holding themselves out as beacons of virtue, so that when they fall short of these publicly announced standards they will receive a firestorm of criticism.

These reasons are connected, in that they both relate to how men view themselves, or want to be viewed. In other words, they have nothing to do with the horrors that women are currently enduring due to misogyny. Those fears are keeping the scaffolding of misogyny firmly in place, and it’s time many more of us overcame them, or at least tried to.

This article, written by a bloke has hit the nail on the head for me. What with this whole #metoo thing going on all over social media...and the fact that male sexual violence against women is an absolute epidemic with most women having experienced harassment/assault/rape at some stage in their lives...

Women have asked for ever for males to stop abusing us (as a class, not as individual people) and it hasn't worked. We have asked nicely, and not so nicely. And nothing changes.

I genuinely do think male people need to start doing as much as they can to call out misogynistic language and such. I do believe there are more 'nice guys' out there than bad ones, the problem seems to be, so many of the nice guys do not challenge the bad ones. For whatever reason.

To me this article is beautifully written. And highlights so many issues surrounding this epidemic.

Please, no focusing on 'not all men are like that' or 'females commit sexual violence too'. Everyone with half a brain knows this already. But to deny this is a very male problem, is pretty silly.

[parmnion]

I can only really judge on how things are in my workplace, but i will try and not be biased.

Its tough for us men in the workplace knowing which of our female work collegues are up for a bit of casual sexism from both sides on a daily basis. Sharing cock pics in our group chats etc..luckily out of the 6 males and 4 females everyone is up for the banter.


If i saw anything untoward from someone though words would be had.

Thinking about it and listening to a lot of radio phone ins on this subject i would probably go out and protest about stopping the sleaze.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I can only really judge on how things are in my workplace, but i will try and not be biased.

Its tough for us men in the workplace knowing which of our female work collegues are up for a bit of casual sexism from both sides on a daily basis. Sharing cock pics in our group chats etc..luckily out of the 6 males and 4 females everyone is up for the banter.


If i saw anything untoward from someone though words would be had.

Thinking about it and listening to a lot of radio phone ins on this subject i would probably go out and protest about stopping the sleaze.

I would say in this situation, no casual sexism around newbies until you can 'work them out' so to speak

And probably no dick pics ever

Though obviously within friendship groups is a little different to towards random people

I am glad you are one of the ones who calls out behaviour, or would do.

I genuinely do think that if all of the good guys started doing that, the rates of sexual assault and such would drop a fair bit, once men started realizing that no, its totally not acceptable to tell a stranger that they would like to 'smash your backdoors in' or to randomly grab her tits in a nightclub, or press up against them with an erection on the tube (all happened to me, all total strangers)

[GiRTh]

Yes. But many wont due to fear of not fitting in. The men involved in the Weinstein case should have done more. Brad Pitt apparently confronted Weinstein after his girlfriend Gwyneth Paltrow had been harassed and seth macfarlane told jokes clearly aimed at Weinstein while hosting the Oscars but its not enough. Apparently everybody knew. Until other men start to object to the 'Jack the lad' behaviour nothing will change

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Yes. But many wont due to fear of not fitting in. The men involved in the Weinstein case should have done more. Brad Pitt apparently confronted Weinstein after his girlfriend Gwyneth Paltrow had been harassed and seth macfarlane told jokes clearly aimed at Weinstein while hosting the Oscars but its not enough. Apparently everybody knew. Until other men start to object to the 'Jack the lad' behaviour nothing will change

Yes. But we are repeatedly told (and I do believe this IS the case) that men who think that way are in the minority. So how would speaking out mean you are the misfit for doing so? Surely the others who are actually decent guys would effectively 'take your side'? Or do guys not really believe that misogynistic men are this minority, and instead fear that its more than that?

Not trying to be confrontational, and only using 'you' so the post makes sense

[parmnion]

I think drink may have had an impact in 2 of your experiences vicky, the third one though..ewww...seriously.

Here lies the problem i guess, a normal reaction should have been you turning to the biggest bloke on the train for help.

The worlds a mess, ive found myself walking behind women at night rushing home..you want to shout from about 20 yards away "dont be scared, im in a rush" but you know that would freak them out more.

.

[Shaun]

Ain't that the truth

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I think drink may have had an impact in 2 of your experiences vicky, the third one though..ewww...seriously.

Here lies the problem i guess, a normal reaction should have been you turning to the biggest bloke on the train for help.

Why should I have to turn to the nearest big bloke for help on a train though? And I am sorry if this sounds paranoid, but how am I to know that this bloke I ask for help isn't also a sleazy pervert? Like this woman

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7905671.html



I don't think alcohol minimizes any of the behavior either. Its the attitude, that this is perfectly fine to do, more than the actual actions. If it wasn't widely accepted that its fine to grope women in clubs, or make vulgar comments to female strangers, then it would not happen anywhere near as often, drink or no drink.

The worlds a mess, ive found myself walking behind women at night rushing home..you want to shout from about 20 yards away "dont be scared, im in a rush" but you know that would freak them out more.

.

What my husband does in this situation (he is a big bloke) is he will cross the street so hes not directly behind her, or go a different way.

I know this should not be necessary, but in todays world where a lot of women are on high alert when alone (especially after dark) I do think its a fairly decent gesture.

I would never suggest that all blokes do this though. But I don't know the answer to it either. Women will not stop being scared of men until the violence against them by men stops :S

[Locke.]

Comes down to specific cases, I guess. In the Weinstein instance it isn't really anything to do with 'fitting in' its about them not wanting to have their entire careers and lives ruined by being blackballed from the industry. I think in the 'real' non-Hollywood world, when it comes to me and people I know personally, that in a regular work place/friend group/class/etc, people absolutely would call someone out if they were behaving inappropriately, both men and women.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes. But we are repeatedly told (and I do believe this IS the case) that men who think that way are in the minority. So how would speaking out mean you are the misfit for doing so? Surely the others who are actually decent guys would effectively 'take your side'? Or do guys not really believe that misogynistic men are this minority, and instead fear that its more than that?

Not trying to be confrontational, and only using 'you' so the post makes sense

Its not that there is a majority of men who think like that its just the environment does not discourage certain behaviour. It would take alot for one person to oppose that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Its not that there is a majority of men who think like that its just the environment does not discourage certain behaviour. It would take alot for one person to oppose that.

Yeah I get that. It will be daunting for the first ones to start doing it. It will get easier though, as more men stand up saying basically..not in my name bro. I know that sounds corny as **** but I am sure you get what I mean there.

I am actually hopeful that change may start coming around soon

Toxic masculinity is bad for everyone tbh. Most normal men included.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Why should I have to turn to the nearest big bloke for help on a train though? And I am sorry if this sounds paranoid, but how am I to know that this bloke I ask for help isn't also a sleazy pervert? Like this woman



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7905671.html



I don't think alcohol minimizes any of the behavior either. Its the attitude, that this is perfectly fine to do, more than the actual actions. If it wasn't widely accepted that its fine to grope women in clubs, or make vulgar comments to female strangers, then it would not happen anywhere near as often, drink or no drink.



What my husband does in this situation (he is a big bloke) is he will cross the street so hes not directly behind her, or go a different way.

I know this should not be necessary, but in todays world where a lot of women are on high alert when alone (especially after dark) I do think its a fairly decent gesture.

I would never suggest that all blokes do this though. But I don't know the answer to it either. Women will not stop being scared of men until the violence against them by men stops :S

You should never have to feel the need to look for help on a train, but you did unfortunatly. The sad fact is when it happened it seems you felt you couldnt ask a man fir assistance! I think you would be surprised if you asked. Or u would like to think you would...why did you feel you couldnt if thats the case?

I think most people would be horrified if they could watch live video of themselves drunk when sober. I also think nowadays most people frown upon that behaviour on a night out.


Funny thing with the scaring women, its always older women who sit next to me on buses and trains, good judges right there. So i will keep walking, breathing heavily as i pass.

I just pop into the pub til its quieter, tell the big fella he can do that.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

You should never have to feel the need to look for help on a train, but you did unfortunatly. The sad fact is when it happened it seems you felt you couldnt ask a man fir assistance! I think you would be surprised if you asked. Or u would like to think you would...why did you feel you couldnt if thats the case?

I felt I could not ask a man for assistance, as there is a large chance they would just laugh, or say the pervert did not mean anything by it and was just genuinely squashed (he was not), or start chatting me up and refuse to give in, or assault me himself, or it may even turn out the perv is this guys friend...and then a combo of the above could happen.

It was never a conscious decision to not ask for help just because I shouldn't HAVE to.

Just like its not really a conscious decision to avoid certain areas. More (and this will likely sound ridiculous to a bloke, or to a woman who has never had reason to be scared yet) its a kind of...constant weighing up inside your head if the risk is worth it. Like, I have a 'danger radar'...and I assume a hell of a lot of females do too. I know many of my female friends do. This came as such a surprise to my husband and I will tell you how it came about too to try explain further

We were out walking the dog, years and years back. Was an absolutely lovely night so we ended up walking further than usual...mainly along well lit areas. When we came to a clearing...kind of a forest arch leading to the woods. Gavin went to march in, not a thought in the world. Going through my head was a risk assessment. It was dark, nighttime, secluded, perfect place for a perv or someone else to just wait for unsuspecting women, it was also quiet, pretty secluded, so noone would likely hear if there were any problems. The risk was not worth it, IMO. I refused to go any further. Gavin was absolutely astounded, as he kept saying that it was a lovely place for a walk but it was so strange, its like a fear you just...don't realize you have until certain situations occur. And this was so strong that I wouldn't even continue with my 6ft 3 brick****house husband!

I asked if he had ever felt this way. He said he hadn't.

Now, it may be his size that has made him this way, but he was pretty sure that men just do not have this constant internal risk assessor (I can't think of any other way to say it)

And THIS was what made him start crossing the street rather than walking behind a lone woman. As he asked me when this happens, and I gave him a few examples, which do include walking alone, especially if you hear footsteps behind you, and even moreso when it turns out its a guy. Except in that situation, you cannot just decide not to go there. You have to deal with it, and the absolute mind numbing fear that it brings with it.

I get that this may sound dramatic and ridiculous, but I assure you its true. And is also the experience of every female friend I have broached this topic with

[parmnion]

I must be in touch with my feminet side because i risk asses when on trains and buses all the time.


I am starting to think that the 20 yard shout is the way forward because i get creeped out when i know someones coming up behind me in the dark, at least with the shout they would get the initial fright but have enough time for their female instincts to kick in like the wily old dears on the trains and buses when they see me cheerily waving from afar.

[Scarlett.]

Agree with this, I never realised how widespread this sort of thing is, I honestly don't get how people can live with themselves knowing they helped enable people like Saville and Weinstien.

[parmnion]

But yes..men should be standing up from the bottom of the ladder against these slithering leeches.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I must be in touch with my feminet side because i risk asses when on trains and buses all the time.


I am starting to think that the 20 yard shout is the way forward because i get creeped out when i know someones coming up behind me in the dark, at least with the shout they would get the initial fright but have enough time for their female instincts to kick in like the wily old dears on the trains and buses when they see me cheerily waving from afar.

Maybe you are

I have asked a few male friends about this ever since the astonishment of my husband though, and none of them report to have this constant almost hidden thing in the back of their minds near constantly.

A few did say that they would feel uncomfortable passing a group of blokes incase they were jumped though. But not ever that they would feel dodgy simply walking home alone in the dark or anything. Or that having simply another person in their personal space would set off a danger radar or anything.

[parmnion]

I dont want to derail what is an important subject to you but are you the same if its a female?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I dont want to derail what is an important subject to you but are you the same if its a female?

Until I know that its a female yes obviously as I don't know that before that point and it could be either. Once I know that its a female... the risk drops greatly and thats when I tend quite literally to breath a sigh of relief. Again that sounds like its an exaggeration, it really is not.

I wouldn't say this is a derail tbh. Its all part of the same culture IMO

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Until I know that its a female yes obviously as I don't know that before that point and it could be either. Once I know that its a female... the risk drops greatly and thats when I tend quite literally to breath a sigh of relief. Again that sounds like its an exaggeration, it really is not.

I wouldn't say this is a derail tbh. Its all part of the same culture IMO

Could i not then argue(if my thumbs fitted this ****ing phones buttons) that its your problem being born a female that feels that way rather than a random bloke trudging home from work. Therefore it should be the job of both men and women to stand up against the question in your debate, not just men....seeing as your examples are more how you react. Wisely i may add...but you are judging all men as potential dangers..i probably would as well though in your shoes...



Theres a paragraph jumbled up somewhere in my head but.....

Basically, lets all get the ****ers..

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Could i not then argue(if my thumbs fitted this ****ing phones buttons) that its your problem being born a female that feels that way rather than a random bloke trudging home from work. Therefore it should be the job of both men and women to stand up against the question in your debate, not just men....seeing as your examples are more how you react. Wisely i may add...but you are judging all men as potential dangers..i probably would as well though in your shoes...

I think you misunderstood me somehwere along the line. I am not blaming that guy walking home from work for me (and others) having this internal risk assessor. I am not blaming guys who walk closely behind me for making me scared. I accept that in many (or most) cases, my fears are totally unjustified. But my fears are largely, because I know the sheer scale of abuse of women by men.

Along with...I have a fighting chance against another female who wanted to harm me. I do not have much chance if some bloke decided he wanted to harm me. I am a fairly large female, who has been in a lot of scrapes in my life so know how to fight, but even against much smaller blokes than me, if the guy really wanted to overpower me, he would not have to use that much effort.

[parmnion]

My jumbled paragraph would have explained that i know you arent blaming men and its just a reaction to the sad state of the times..i think the only thing i disagree with is the debate question in that it should be men....shouldnt it be both?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

My jumbled paragraph would have explained that i know you arent blaming men and its just a reaction to the sad state of the times..i think the only thing i disagree with is the debate question in that it should be men....shouldnt it be both?

Of course it should be both. And women have been arguing against it for a very long time. And do stand up against it (I would argue, possibly more frequently than men do) but womens voices are just not heard the way mens are (especially on the issue of male violence against females)

Also women sometimes do not actually see the 'true' side of men, as some men will try to suppress it around women..especially women they love. Men out as just men...are much more likely to air their true feelings about this matter. Men are in a much better position in this way too.

The kind of man who would assault a female...is unlikely to listen to females when they complain about this kind of thing. They are much more likely to listen to males around them. If that makes more sense

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Of course it should be both. And women have been arguing against it for a very long time. And do stand up against it (I would argue, possibly more frequently than men do) but womens voices are just not heard the way mens are (especially on the issue of male violence against females)

Also women sometimes do not actually see the 'true' side of men, as some men will try to suppress it around women..especially women they love. Men out as just men...are much more likely to air their true feelings about this matter. Men are in a much better position in this way too.

The kind of man who would assault a female...is unlikely to listen to females when they complain about this kind of thing. They are much more likely to listen to males around them. If that makes more sense

Going on from your last paragraph....

That would work in the offices around the world and should be applauded.

But the more money involved and the more power that person has....how do we get round that?

Protest...together. male and female.

[parmnion]

Just a side note.....risk assesment...all women and men should ask possible partners how they react when they stub thier toe....
Answer crumple in a heap...hop going ow ow ow...safe.
Answer Shout, swear..hit wall...danger.