[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Cherie

No I think you will find that is you and you have not comprehended what I am saying, I have not gone to great lengths such as providing links and proof that throat slitting is painless, I have not said stunning is a great idea, what I have said is I think slitting throats might not be such a stress free experience as is being promoted, so in view of that promotion would the same people promoting the idea of throat slitting as a kinder way to die, be okay with other animals having their throats slit outside the meat industry if there were going to die...whether this be culling or some psycho killing animals is just an example and not one to be taken to heart like you have done.

But you're making points that just don't exist? The methods used for culling animals are horrific! YES it would be far better if we could cut their throats. Do you think culling methods are selected based on being kind? They're selected based on what is cheapest and most effective. Usually poison which is pretty much the worst way to die imaginable.

If you're talking about animal euthanasia, sure, the lethal injection given lets them pass away peacefully. It also would contaminate the meat so is completely irrelevant to the meat industry.

So all you're asking is, outside of the context of the meat industry, "How should we kill animals"? We shouldn't, is the answer... I don't understand what you're getting at, at all.

The ONLY relevant question is, is throat-slitting worse than stunning and killing. I have no idea how or why you're trying to transfer just the "throat slitting" part over to an example of other random animal killings in an attempt to "make people see that cutting something's throat is bad". Yes it's bad. Killing animals is bad! We do it for selfish reasons, and the animals suffer. What is your point otherwise? I can't imagine you do have one UNLESS you are trying to say that while throat cutting "is bad", bolting/electrocuting "isn't bad", which would be a very confusing standpoint.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But you're making points that just don't exist? The methods used for culling animals are horrific! YES it would be far better if we could cut their throats. Do you think culling methods are selected based on being kind? They're selected based on what is cheapest and most effective. Usually poison which is pretty much the worst way to die imaginable.

If you're talking about animal euthanasia, sure, the lethal injection given lets them pass away peacefully. It also would contaminate the meat so is completely irrelevant to the meat industry.

So all you're asking is, outside of the context of the meat industry, "How should we kill animals"? We shouldn't, is the answer... I don't understand what you're getting at, at all.

The ONLY relevant question is, is throat-slitting worse than stunning and killing. I have no idea how or why you're trying to transfer just the "throat slitting" part over to an example of other random animal killings in an attempt to "make people see that cutting something's throat is bad". Yes it's bad. Killing animals is bad! We do it for selfish reasons, and the animals suffer. What is your point otherwise? I can't imagine you do have one UNLESS you are trying to say that while throat cutting "is bad", bolting/electrocuting "isn't bad", which would be a very confusing standpoint.

If you haven't got it by now you never will, and I find it ironic that you have just preached on another thread about people wilfully pretending not to get it, when you so often exhibit this behaviour yourself

[Niamh.]

tbf Cherie I think Vicky was the only one using that as an argument, most people are saying that killing animals in a slaughter house is going to be bad no matter what

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

This forum is 13+, we have a swear filter so how on earth you think graphic videos like that would be allowed is beyond me :/

Its real life, and happens everyday in every city of the uk...

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Its real life, and happens everyday in every city of the uk...

Lots of things happen in real life that we don't allow videos of to be posted. If you have a problem with these rules maybe you should PM an admin about it?

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

of course it's going to be unpleasant, there is no "pleasant" way to kill an animal for food. Do you think hanging a chicken upside down by their legs and dunking their heads in an electrified water-bath before cutting their heads off is nicer?

Nicer than what?

I've already said I am bothered by slaughter and dont find any of it nice. I would prefer slaughtered animals to be treated as humanely as possible since I am unlikely to stop the UK consuming meat personally. You are taking issue with that and not with those promoting stringing it upside down, cutting its throat and letting it bleed to death. Are you upset because Im not a vegan but fine that others arent? Not getting where you are coming from here.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Nicer than what?

I've already said I am bothered by slaughter and dont find any of it nice. I would prefer slaughtered animals to be treated as humanely as possible since I am unlikely to stop the UK consuming meat personally. You are taking issue with that and not with those promoting stringing it upside down, cutting its throat and letting it bleed to death. Are you upset because Im not a vegan but fine that others arent? Not getting where you are coming from here.

Nicer than the part of your post that I highlighted............

"it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant"

I'm not taking issue with you wanting the animals to have a nicer death (if there is such a thing) I'm saying the way they die in our slaughterhouses are horrendous as well. I've no idea what you're on about with me wanting you to be vegan lol I couldn't care less what you do or do not eat

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf Cherie I think Vicky was the only one using that as an argument, most people are saying that killing animals in a slaughter house is going to be bad no matter what

Yeah I do think I was about the only one to actully say this.

I do think its unpleasant either way. I agree that Halal slaughter LOOKS more unpleasant (having watched parminions link..the actual link doesn't need to be posted, you told people how to find it should they be interested.) than otherwise. It seems the main question is, IS it actually more unpleasant for the animal or not.


Jaxie I will read your RSPCA links in a bit (seems I need a pdf reader on here and I cant disappear back upstairs as my sons off school with the trots.). New scientist I have found in the past to be very much pseudoscience and infact that very article is a little problematic when arguing on this issue. The main problem I can see with the article, is again is does not appear to be comparing like with like. It states that cutting the throat starts a pain signal due to severed nerves (which is odd, as serious injuries tend to hurt not much more than a little nick...in people anyway. Unless this IS the pain thats spoke of in this. The pressurey feeling you get, but not exactly pain), and that apparently stunning afterwards removes this pain signal. Doesn't appear to be any actual looking into stunning then slitting, or indeed stunning the bolting...which is a different kind of pain altogether. Which is problematic, of course, when trying to argue for one method or the other. This is one glaring issue I see with this on a skim read and my knowledge of newscientist..ahem..totally misrepresenting a lot of studies before. I would much rather have the actual study, than newscientists take on it tbh. But appreciate not all studies are made available to the public

I will read the rspca stuff when I can. This is not a topic I had really thought that much into actually until this thread. So its been interesting, at least. And odd at times, sure

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

This forum is 13+, we have a swear filter so how on earth you think graphic videos like that would be allowed is beyond me :/

Its real life, and happens everyday in every city of the uk...

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

But that's just bizarre if your argument is that it's not OK simply because of the pain issue? I mean, I can pretty much guarantee that strapping a grenade to a cat will cause no pain... so your argument is that people should have "no issue" with people blowing up Old Grandma Smith's tabby because it won't feel it?

The reason people have a problem with the idea of going around killing people's pets isn't "because it hurts" .

"HAHA I just killed your cat!!"
"WHAT??!? Oh... oh my god... what did you do to him... did you stamp him to death? Did you hurt him and cut him and stuff?"
"Nah, I electrocuted him so he passed out, then killed him while he was unconscious. He won't have felt a thing"
"Oh thank goodness. That's fine then."

Actually we have a serial cat killer in the south and people are very upset about how it's done.

[parmnion]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Lots of things happen in real life that we don't allow videos of to be posted. If you have a problem with these rules maybe you should PM an admin about it?

Pointless i never get a reply.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Nicer than the part of your post that I highlighted............

"it seems pretty obvious to me that having your throat cut would be unpleasant"

I'm not taking issue with you wanting the animals to have a nicer death (if there is such a thing) I'm saying the way they die in our slaughterhouses are horrendous as well. I've no idea what you're on about with me wanting you to be vegan lol I couldn't care less what you do or do not eat

Perhaps I misread what you were trying to say. I'll stick with the RSPCA opinion myself rather than forum.

[Vicky.]

Having said this, even without reading the RSPCA stuff I am almost swayed by this alone

Which countries have banned non-stun slaughter, including for halal and kosher?
Denmark, Iceland and Sweden

As I believe the Nordic countries to be way advanced than us when concerning almost all matters.

Though still...as I have said through the whole thread, I put more importance on living conditions than the minute or so before/during death. But would still prefer the least painful method to be used in all animal slaughter, obviously.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Actually we have a serial cat killer in the south and people are very upset about how it's done.

And they wouldn't mind the dead cats if it was a gentle cat killer. Well, I find that a bit odd but each to their own I guess.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And they wouldn't mind the dead cats if it was a gentle cat killer. Well, I find that a bit odd but each to their own I guess.

Words in mouth, tsk.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Perhaps you should take your own advice given what Vicky has just posted.

You equated one person's arguments with everyone's and you've been ignoring evidence that proves what you are saying wrong and instead you're trying to take the thread off topic by talking down to people by acting like people don't understand what you are saying when it's the opposite, everyone understands what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Culling wild pests and putting pets to sleep is a completely different ball game to killing animals for meat. You are getting off topic in an attempt to move the goalposts because your argument that Halal slaughter is cruel in comparison to western methods simply does not hold water and there is scientific proof from multiple sources provided in this topic that prove what you believe simply isn't true.

This topic is about whether it's more cruel to stun an animal before killing it or not and the science tells us that stunning animals prior to slitting their throat causes them more distress than just slitting their throat and ending it in few seconds. The Culling of wild animals and such has no relevance in this thread and it's just your attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

And they wouldn't mind the dead cats if it was a gentle cat killer. Well, I find that a bit odd but each to their own I guess.

that's what you folks are claiming regarding throat slitting, I guess the view changes depending on the animal point proven

[Tom4784]

As for Parm's insistence to post slaughter videos, we've already established that it would be pointless to do so. Stunning prevents animals from reacting to their death so it look peaceful for the animal than it actually is. Posting a video and saying that one method is better for the animal based on visuals alone in pointless when there's been enough evidence posted in the thread proving that stunning causes the animal more pain and stress.

Stunning is a health and safety measure, it's for the benefit of the workers, not the animals.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You equated one person's arguments with everyone's and you've been ignoring evidence that proves what you are saying wrong and instead you're trying to take the thread off topic by talking down to people by acting like people don't understand what you are saying when it's the opposite, everyone understands what you are saying and it's nonsense.

Culling wild pests and putting pets to sleep is a completely different ball game to killing animals for meat. You are getting off topic in an attempt to move the goalposts because your argument that Halal slaughter is cruel in comparison to western methods simply does not hold water and there is scientific proof from multiple sources provided in this topic that prove what you believe simply isn't true.

This topic is about whether it's more cruel to stun an animal before killing it or not and the science tells us that stunning animals prior to slitting their throat causes them more distress than just slitting their throat and ending it in few seconds. The Culling of wild animals and such has no relevance in this thread and it's just your attempt to obfuscate the discussion.

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As for Parm's insistence to post slaughter videos, we've already established that it would be pointless to do so. Stunning prevents animals from reacting to their death so it look peaceful for the animal than it actually is. Posting a video and saying that one method is better for the animal based on visuals alone in pointless when there's been enough evidence posted in the thread proving that stunning causes the animal more pain and stress.

Stunning is a health and safety measure, it's for the benefit of the workers, not the animals.

its great to have such an expert on board, when was your last slaughter?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Having said this, even without reading the RSPCA stuff I am almost swayed by this alone



As I believe the Nordic countries to be way advanced than us when concerning almost all matters.

Though still...as I have said through the whole thread, I put more importance on living conditions than the minute or so before/during death. But would still prefer the least painful method to be used in all animal slaughter, obviously.

I still believe it's more of a health and safety issue than anything as to why non-stun methods are banned in those countries.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Moving the goalposts did you actually read the thread? DR also supplied evidence about stabbing not hurting as did Niamh

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you're going to ignore what I've said just to make snide comments then I have my answer. You have nothing useful to add to this topic and you are floundering.

You are making misrepresentations about my posts

Did Niamh and DR contribute to the painless stabbing conversation or not?


Once you have confirmed I will be delighted to continue with my useful observations.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

its great to have such an expert on board, when was your last slaughter?

I'm no expert, I've just paid attention to the evidence provided in articles written by actual experts that know more about the science than either you or me.

Again, this should be obvious, I've never claimed to be an expert. I'm quite sick of explaining things that should be obvious because you want to act in a completely undignified manner rather than admitting you could be wrong.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm no expert, I've just paid attention to the evidence provided in articles written by actual experts that know more about the science than either you or me.

Again, this should be obvious, I've never claimed to be an expert. I'm quite sick of explaining things that should be obvious because you want to act in a completely undignified manner rather than admitting you could be wrong.

for a minute I thought I wrote that