[Livia]

Originally Posted by luvjustin

Aggression is sometimes the only way people will listen.

Stonewall being a prime example.

Personally, aggression makes me switch off.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Just because someone explains their views doesn't mean other people has to accept them as the truth. People ARE allowed to hold opposing views, you know.

I didn't think Ann was homophobic for the most part of this series, I thought she had no problem with the gays but disagreed with marriage but it's becoming apparent that she does have homophobic tendencies and I don't think you can expect people to accept that and keep quiet. She's allowed her views and so is everyone else. Like she said in the house earlier on in the series, I believe, 'people are entitled to their offense'.

People are allowed to hold opposing views. So what are we all doing here discussing Ann's views? The ones that she's allowed to hold?

Now they've taken the offence they're entitled to, what do they want to do with it? Shane speaking to people individually about Ann, trying to get them to agree with him... what does he... and you... and people arguing his case on here... want them to do with Ann? Do they want her to repent? Do they want her thrown out of the house? Now that everyone is quite clear that they are offended, what now?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Livia

People are allowed to hold opposing views. So what are we all doing here discussing Ann's views? The ones that she's allowed to hold?

Now they've taken the offence they're entitled to, what do they want to do with it? Shane speaking to people individually about Ann, trying to get them to agree with him... what does he... and you... and people arguing his case on here... want them to do with Ann? Do they want her to repent? Do they want her thrown out of the house? Now that everyone is quite clear that they are offended, what now?

Well by the sounds of what he was saying to Wayne and Amanda, he wants them to tackle her views as well

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well by the sounds of what he was saying to Wayne and Amanda, he wants them to tackle her views as well

How are they going to tackle them, though? I don't know what they want from her. Are they going to sit round her and individually bring up everything she's done - or not done - in the past that they don't agree with? Do they want her humiliated? Thrown out? It's dominating the house at the moment and the only one who's not had any direct input in the current grievances is Ann. It's making the Ginuwine/Ashley showmance seem entertaining...

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

How are they going to tackle them, though? I don't know what they want from her. Are they going to sit round her and individually bring up everything she's done - or not done - in the past that they don't agree with? Do they want her humiliated? Thrown out? It's dominating the house at the moment and the only one who's not had any direct input in the current grievances is Ann. It's making the Ginuwine/Ashley showmance seem entertaining...

Agreed,plus Ann did tell Shane J at the beginning her thoughts on things,why does he need to keep bringing it up

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Well he is entitled to his opinion and it seems to me many of the older generation of gays are much more tolerant of others views, which is an interesting turnaround in these days of open mindedness

Older gay people are probably more used to being discriminated against because of their sexuality so it's not as unusual a thing to happen for them as it is for younger people, if there's a general difference between the generations I'd say it's because of that rather than a difference in open mindedness. And it's because of a lot of older gay people fighting for equality and taking a stand against the kind of views Ann has that caused change, which wouldn't have happened if everyone had Biggins stance.

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I think we should take Amandas advice,ditch the labels ,live and let live,no one gender needs to be better than the other, we are all entitalled to our own views,we don't HAVE to like anyone,lets just as I said live and let live,it's not hard to do,all people should be toleratant ,not just a selective few.

I see 'live and let live' as sort of being a reason for equal rights activism and fighting peoples intolerance, not being the antithesis to it, in that everyone should just be able to live their lives and allow others to without persecution or different treatment because of something like sexuality. I'd say it's Ann who doesn't believe in 'live and let live'.
(I also don't understand how being against intolerance is itself an act of intolerance.)

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Older gay people are probably more used to being discriminated against because of their sexuality so it's not as unusual a thing to happen for them as it is for younger people, if there's a general difference between the generations I'd say it's because of that rather than a difference in open mindedness. And it's because of a lot of older gay people fighting for equality and taking a stand against the kind of views Ann has that caused change, which wouldn't have happened if everyone had Biggins stance.



I see 'live and let live' as sort of being a reason for equal rights activism and fighting peoples intolerance, not being the antithesis to it, in that everyone should just be able to live their lives and allow others to without persecution or different treatment because of something like sexuality. I'd say it's Ann who doesn't believe in 'live and let live'.
(I also don't understand how being against intolerance is itself an act of intolerance.)

Ann said herself what two people do in private is entirely up to them,so I'de say that is 'live and let live'

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well by the sounds of what he was saying to Wayne and Amanda, he wants them to tackle her views as well

that is not his call to make though, how they interact with others is not for him to dictate

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Ann said herself what two people do in private is entirely up to them,so I'de say that is 'live and let live'

Gay people being confined to their houses isn't live and let live though If they can't have the same rights and treatment as straight people in private and in public. Saying 'you can be gay but only in private' just doesn't make any sense to me at all... what does it even mean? And what does it have to do with the denial of equal rights? It honestly just sounds like a euphemism for sex.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

People are allowed to hold opposing views. So what are we all doing here discussing Ann's views? The ones that she's allowed to hold?

Now they've taken the offence they're entitled to, what do they want to do with it? Shane speaking to people individually about Ann, trying to get them to agree with him... what does he... and you... and people arguing his case on here... want them to do with Ann? Do they want her to repent? Do they want her thrown out of the house? Now that everyone is quite clear that they are offended, what now?

It's not that difficult Livia, She's allowed to hold her view, people are allowed to discuss that view. A person is just as entitled to their offense as they are their opinions.

The problem is that you, like so many people, only care about freedom of speech when it benefits you, Ann is entitled to her opinion but if anyone has a view that opposes that then obviously that's an act of shutting her down, trying to silence her etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and freedom of speech protects no one from others criticising those opinions, someone saying that disagree is not them trying to silence another person's opinion.

I don't get what's so difficult about that to understand.

I don't want nothing to be done to Ann, she is allowed her views and we are allowed to condemn those views. I only care that freedom of speech is preserved and a lot of people defending Ann are trying to shut down people criticising her.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not that difficult Livia, She's allowed to hold her view, people are allowed to discuss that view. A person is just as entitled to their offense as they are their opinions.

The problem is that you, like so many people, only care about freedom of speech when it benefits you, Ann is entitled to her opinion but if anyone has a view that opposes that then obviously that's an act of shutting her down, trying to silence her etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and freedom of speech protects no one from others criticising those opinions, someone saying that disagree is not them trying to silence another person's opinion.

I don't get what's so difficult about that to understand.

But you support someone who berates and isolates someone purely because of their opinion, therefore denying free speech

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Marches

But you support someone who berates and isolates someone purely because of their opinion, therefore denying free speech

How is he denying her the right to her opinion? She is free to say what she wants and has done.

This is an example of what I'm saying. you believe Ann can have her views but any opposition is seen as trying to deny her, her opinion. It's bull**** and it's everything you saying that Shane J is guilty of.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It's not that difficult Livia, She's allowed to hold her view, people are allowed to discuss that view. A person is just as entitled to their offense as they are their opinions.

The problem is that you, like so many people, only care about freedom of speech when it benefits you, Ann is entitled to her opinion but if anyone has a view that opposes that then obviously that's an act of shutting her down, trying to silence her etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and freedom of speech protects no one from others criticising those opinions, someone saying that disagree is not them trying to silence another person's opinion.

I don't get what's so difficult about that to understand.

I don't want nothing to be done to Ann, she is allowed her views and we are allowed to condemn those views. I only care that freedom of speech is preserved and a lot of people defending Ann are trying to shut down people criticising her.

You are so rude sometimes. And you didn't answer my question. But don't bother now... I'm npt interested. Maybe someone else with an opposing view to mine will answer... like an adult.

[Marches]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How is he denying her the right to her opinion? She is free to say what she wants and has done.

This is an example of what I'm saying. you believe Ann can have her views but any opposition is seen as trying to deny her, her opinion. It's bull**** and it's everything you saying that Shane J is guilty of.

‘I don’t agree with you so I’ll manipulate the rest of the house to dislike you’

Does that seem healthy for free speech?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

You are so rude sometimes. And you didn't answer my question. But don't bother now... I'm npt interested. Maybe someone else with an opposing view to mine will answer... like an adult.

Hmm.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Marches

‘I don’t agree with you so I’ll manipulate the rest of the house to dislike you’

Does that seem healthy for free speech?

Again, she is still entitled to her opinions. You really need to stop trying to twist this into something it's not.

She is not being silenced, she is allowed her opinions. Her right to freedom of speech is still intact.

[Marches]

She is being inadvertently silenced

Such a manipulating her words to make her look like a homophobe. People will dismiss her opinions now, inadvertently refusing her free speech and acceptance of it

[AnnieK]

I get that having free speech allows people to challenge it as it should but what happens then. Is it a case of he who shouts loudest, or should we not concentrate on educating people who are willing to listen and kearn about oppression faced by minority groups, rather than trying to change the views of people who are unwilling to change? There are plenty of people willing to listen and kearn but as is shown there are people who won't. As we've seen with shane j, fighting against people like Ann only leads to frustration and then the very good of the message gets diluted.

Shane J has a way to him that people will listen to, he is educated and passionate but he has spent so long listing Ann's digressions that all his good work has been pushed to the back of peoples minds because of the way he has approached it.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Marches

She is being inadvertently silenced

Such a manipulating her words to make her look like a homophobe. People will dismiss her opinions now, inadvertently refusing her free speech and acceptance of it

That's not what Freedom of Speech is. Freedom of Speech is the right to speak your opinion, it's not the right that everyone has to accept that opinion without question.

She is allowed to speak her opinion and others are allowed to respond to that opinion as they wish as long as it doesn't involve violence and the like. She is not being silenced because not everyone likes what she has to say ffs.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marches

She is being inadvertently silenced

Such a manipulating her words to make her look like a homophobe. People will dismiss her opinions now, inadvertently refusing her free speech and acceptance of it

That's how I'm seeing it too.

Shane J wasn't engaging her on her opinions, he was talking about Ann behind her back, trying to turn others against her, or maybe to get them to pull her up, I'm not sure what he wanted. I keep asking... no one seems to know what he actually wants from her.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Livia

That's how I'm seeing it too.

Shane J wasn't engaging her on her opinions, he was talking about Ann behind her back, trying to turn others against her, or maybe to get them to pull her up, I'm not sure what he wanted. I keep asking... no one seems to know what he actually wants from her.

I've asked time and time again and no-one seems willing to answer.

What do Shane and his supporters want from Ann?

Do they want her to change her view? Because if they do then they're going the wrong way about it.

Do they want her sacrificed on the cross? Because if so, ain't going to happen.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I get that having free speech allows people to challenge it as it should but what happens then. Is it a case of he who shouts loudest, or should we not concentrate on educating people who are willing to listen and kearn about oppression faced by minority groups, rather than trying to change the views of people who are unwilling to change? There are plenty of people willing to listen and kearn but as is shown there are people who won't. As we've seen with shane j, fighting against people like Ann only leads to frustration and then the very good of the message gets diluted.

Shane J has a way to him that people will listen to, he is educated and passionate but he has spent so long listing Ann's digressions that all his good work has been pushed to the back of peoples minds because of the way he has approached it.

Great post, I totally agree

[poppsywoppsy]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I've asked time and time again and no-one seems willing to answer.

What do Shane and his supporters want from Ann?

Do they want her to change her view? Because if they do then they're going the wrong way about it.

Do they want her sacrificed on the cross? Because if so, ain't going to happen.

I am concerned about when Ann leaves the house because the abuse she is getting on here is concerning.

I also think BBBOTS will be gunning for her. She will be unaware of what's been going on too.

I hope she leaves with Amanda, that will be helpful.

Ann has enjoyed herself in the house, more than she thought she would.

I also think Shane J once he is out of the house will get quite a shock as he is not everyone's cup of tea and apart from his Gay mates, he could get a backlash like he has already had in the house.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by poppsywoppsy

I am concerned about when Ann leaves the house because the abuse she is getting on here is concerning.

I also think BBBOTS will be gunning for her. She will be unaware of what's been going on too.

I hope she leaves with Amanda, that will be helpful.

Ann has enjoyed herself in the house, more than she thought she would.

I also think Shane J once he is out of the house will get quite a shock as he is not everyone's cup of tea and apart from his Gay mates, he could get a backlash like he has already had in the house.

Yeah, I'd be concerned as well.

She is a strong old bird but no-one wants death threats at the end of the day.

Still, she does know that she's not popular so maybe she won't be phased. I don't imagine she's one for twitter, FB etc. so that won't affect her.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

all people should be toleratant ,not just a selective few.

Originally Posted by Jamie89

(I also don't understand how being against intolerance is itself an act of intolerance.)

Karl Popper's paradox of tolerance in action